Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[JRoc]

Shocker fan here, occasionally check out this site because i have been following Creighton this season mainly to watch Doug and how he does his senior year (definitely think he should be NPOY). But i decided to register a name and make a comment on the expansion. At no point in time do i think that WSU will ever be invited to the Big East or that it's even in the thoughts of the higher ups that make the decisions. WSU needs out of The Valley but if that happens, it won't be to the Big East.

Welcome, I have been having fun watching the Shox as well (hate it being on ESPN3). Would love to have you guys in the Beast. You do need out of the valley, wish it was here.

[BillEsq]

I guess the endgame thought for me is this:

Is it possible to be happy where one is at when there's something better out there?

Yes, so long as your PROGRAM is achieving at a high - national - level, regardless of your program's conference affiliation. SLU did that last year, is doing it this year, and has the program elements in place to do it moving forward.

Perhaps there may be anxiety in play as you wait to see what transpires with the Big East, but at least you'll be happy as your PROGRAM experiences success. As long as SLU keeps tracking, it most certainly will be a top candidate for expansion, assuming expansion occurs, and assuming football schools remain focused on matters having primarily to do with football.

Dash, I've talked with you many times, and I see what you're saying. I guess as one of the more vocal SLU fans, it feels like I'm consistently on the defensive.

I think this is pretty much a big communication. from my understanding i think what Win is saying is that the BE is the only top destination for all basketball schools. The A10 is the next best and then so on. the BE does not have to worry about any other conference coming in a poaching SLU Dayton or what have you, it is free to pick of any basketball only school that it wants. Technically the BE can select any schools it wants, but it is not going to raid an FBS conference at any level and it is not going to be raiding the Patriot. So when and if the BE expands it will take from the A10. Therefore until the BE expands all the A10 teams have peaked as they likewise have nowhere else to go. It is a step down valley and any other non FBS league. The WCC while being essentially on par with the A10 is geographically prohibitive. naturally all the BE teams have peaked as they can't go anywhere else (same for WCC other than FBS BYU).

Basically SLU and all other A10 programs are on hold for any possible BE expansion. (it doesnt' matter if it expands or not) but when and if it ever does expand the BE will raid the A10 and then the A10 will go raiding.

while my SLU compatriots are at times more defensive they are not in a bad place. Dash is right. Any expansion hopeful just has to knuckle down, win, and hope they don't play in Philly. Personally I and most SLU fans are happy as they should be but as win points out right now there is a shuffle to the top conferences. There are 5 top FBS conference and 1 top basketball only conference. if you school isn't in one of those you aren't perfectly happy especially with this realignment madness. The same thing goes for the next tier, as schools are lining up for any spots that open up in the AAC, MWC, A10, and WCC.

[Xudash]

I guess the endgame thought for me is this:

Is it possible to be happy where one is at when there's something better out there?

Yes, so long as your PROGRAM is achieving at a high - national - level, regardless of your program's conference affiliation. SLU did that last year, is doing it this year, and has the program elements in place to do it moving forward.

Perhaps there may be anxiety in play as you wait to see what transpires with the Big East, but at least you'll be happy as your PROGRAM experiences success. As long as SLU keeps tracking, it most certainly will be a top candidate for expansion, assuming expansion occurs, and assuming football schools remain focused on matters having primarily to do with football.

Dash, I've talked with you many times, and I see what you're saying. I guess as one of the more vocal SLU fans, it feels like I'm consistently on the defensive.

BW, I don't see you as needing to be on the defensive. SLU is a great school with a very well resourced basketball program, and it's located in what would be a new and sizeable market for the Big East. I certainly can imagine your frustration with SLU not getting into the Big East when this thing was put together, but I do truly believe it's about PROGRAM first, and that goes for any program, including program's in the Big East and in the Big five F-ball conferences. Conference affiliation is most certainly an asset when it comes to the Big East and those top football conferences, but real success is determined by how well programs are managed, which is to note how often they make and have success in the NCAA Tournament.

Stay good. That holds true for Duke, Kansas, Florida, Ohio State, Kentucky, Syracuse, UNC, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier, SLU, VCU, ....

Everything else is time and message board chatter while we wait to see what kind of realignment, if any, is left to unfold in the foreseeable future.

[BillEsq]

Any expansion needs to be a game-changing program, not expansion for expansion's sake

1.) The Big Ten kept its membership constant for 40 years, and only added one team, who was a national power, Penn State.
2.) The SEC kept its membership constant for 25 years before it grabbed Arkansas and South Carolina to get to 12 and stage a football championship game.
3.) The ACC nabbed Virginia Tech, Miami, and BC to get to 12 and stage a football championship game.
4.) The Big Ten added Nebraska, (who with 11 National Championships, became the third-most successful program in the Big Ten after Michigan and Ohio State) to get to 12 and stage a football championship game.
5.) The Pac-10, to get to 12 and a football championship game, added Colorado, and only added Utah as an afterthought. Its original aim, if you recall, was to get Texas and Oklahoma, bringing Oklahoma State and Texas Tech along for the ride. Texas opted to stay put in the Big 12 with a better TV rights deal for Longhorn Network.

These were big time moves that dynamically changed the conference. Who are your basketball equivalents of Penn State, Nebraska, Arkansas, and Texas? Your game-changers that justify rocking the boat? I really don't see any out there right now, all respect to Saint Louis and what they've managed to do turning that program around.

Assuming you don't want to go outside your geographic concentration, your game changers are Connecticut, Notre Dame, Wake Forest and Duke. None of them are likely to join the Big East, although if they are, I would say they are listed in order of likelihood, contingent on UConn coming to its senses and dropping its mid-major level FBS football, which is cannibalizing its basketball program, and Notre Dame perhaps figuring out that basketball visits from Duke and Carolina every other year aren't worth the strength-of-schedule-suck that is ACC football.

SLU isn't going anywhere. Richmond isn't going anywhere. VCU isn't going anywhere. The A-10 is effectively their ceiling for how high they can go outside of the Big East. UMass may well be heading to the AAC as their 12th team. Fine. Let them.

There's no need to rush. Sit back. Watch for the ACC (who, with football-centric members and basketball-centric members, and an unwieldy 15 teams most resembles the old Big East format). Watch to see if the Big 12 makes a move to get to 12 teams. But don't expand just for the sake of expanding.

I agree with most of your post, but your first references deal with a different era. Since then the B10 dropped standards and grabbed nebraska and the mighty athletic programs that aren't of rutgers and maryland. comparing the current state of realignment and college sports from 1950-1990 is pushing it.

Waiting for ACC schools is a waste of time no FBS school outside of ND is going to come to the BE, and waiting on ND is well waiting on ND.
You are correct though no A10 school is going anywhere out side of UMass and the WCC isn't coming any closer. but as another poster pointed out we are not done yet with realignment and potential NCAA division restructuring. I expect that the BE will expand in the near future. whether that is tomorrow or 10 years i don't know but more likely sooner than later.

[BillEsq]

BW, I don't see you as needing to be on the defensive. SLU is a great school with a very well resourced basketball program, and it's located in what would be a new and sizeable market for the Big East. I certainly can imagine your frustration with SLU not getting into the Big East when this thing was put together, but I do truly believe it's about PROGRAM first, and that goes for any program, including program's in the Big East and in the Big five F-ball conferences. Conference affiliation is most certainly an asset when it comes to the Big East and those top football conferences, but real success is determined by how well programs are managed, which is to note how often they make and have success in the NCAA Tournament.

Stay good. That holds true for Duke, Kansas, Florida, Ohio State, Kentucky, Syracuse, UNC, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier, SLU, VCU, ....

Everything else is time and message board chatter while we wait to see what kind of realignment, if any, is left to unfold in the foreseeable future.

for the most part i agree dash. Except of all those schools you listed only two aren't in one of the power conference. (by power i mean media power)
major conference/ NCAA realignment is looming and it behooves any school to be as high up on the food chain as possible. If any major restructuring happens only schools in the FBS P5 are safe. The BE is the next most safe with four AAC,MWC,WCC, and A10 the next (personally i feel bad for any other conference). Its commons sense that you want to move your school up as high as you can. Hence why FBS schools are waiting on the B12 to expand again and the basketball only schools are waiting on the BE to expand again. You also have the next level of schools fighting for spots in the AAC, MWC, WCC, and A10. It is always safer at the top.

[BillikensWin]

I guess the endgame thought for me is this:

Is it possible to be happy where one is at when there's something better out there?[/quote]

Yes, so long as your PROGRAM is achieving at a high - national - level, regardless of your program's conference affiliation. SLU did that last year, is doing it this year, and has the program elements in place to do it moving forward.

Perhaps there may be anxiety in play as you wait to see what transpires with the Big East, but at least you'll be happy as your PROGRAM experiences success. As long as SLU keeps tracking, it most certainly will be a top candidate for expansion, assuming expansion occurs, and assuming football schools remain focused on matters having primarily to do with football.[/quote]

Dash, I've talked with you many times, and I see what you're saying. I guess as one of the more vocal SLU fans, it feels like I'm consistently on the defensive.[/quote]


I think this is pretty much a big communication. from my understanding i think what Win is saying is that the BE is the only top destination for all basketball schools. The A10 is the next best and then so on. the BE does not have to worry about any other conference coming in a poaching SLU Dayton or what have you, it is free to pick of any basketball only school that it wants. Technically the BE can select any schools it wants, but it is not going to raid an FBS conference at any level and it is not going to be raiding the Patriot. So when and if the BE expands it will take from the A10. Therefore until the BE expands all the A10 teams have peaked as they likewise have nowhere else to go. It is a step down valley and any other non FBS league. The WCC while being essentially on par with the A10 is geographically prohibitive. naturally all the BE teams have peaked as they can't go anywhere else (same for WCC other than FBS BYU).

Basically SLU and all other A10 programs are on hold for any possible BE expansion. (it doesnt' matter if it expands or not) but when and if it ever does expand the BE will raid the A10 and then the A10 will go raiding.

while my SLU compatriots are at times more defensive they are not in a bad place. Dash is right. Any expansion hopeful just has to knuckle down, win, and hope they don't play in Philly. Personally I and most SLU fans are happy as they should be but as win points out right now there is a shuffle to the top conferences. There are 5 top FBS conference and 1 top basketball only conference. if you school isn't in one of those you aren't perfectly happy especially with this realignment madness. The same thing goes for the next tier, as schools are lining up for any spots that open up in the AAC, MWC, A10, and WCC.[/quote]

Esquire is more or less right. It's a communication thing more than anything else. In terms of being happy with the Billikens' play, yeah...it's hard to be too pissed off about where we're at right now.

[Xudash]

Well, anyone who thinks that UD is worth anything to the Big East should clearly reconsider. They lost to St. Joe's at HOME tonight; the Hawks hadn't beaten them there in forever, apparently. UD is on it's way to doing what it's done for most of about 10 years now: .500 in A10 Conference play.

I suspect the UD fan base is now truly beginning to lose its loyalty, because it has certainly lost its patience.

[BillikensWin]

Well, arguing about inclusion led to a 20 point thrashing of Richmond. Maybe that's the key.

[Gopher+RamFan]

Can you further elaborate on VCU's large endowment please. That is actually pretty interesting. Do they have any aspirations of starting a football program?

The growth in endowment, I believe, is that VCU has consolidated land holdings, alumni groups and separate endowment organizations. The land holdings, since they are not being used by the University, nor are being touched, are considered investments and part of the endowment, according to the State's Auditor (since VCU is a public school). VCU will continue its consolidation with VCU-MCV (Medical College of Virginia #209 on the list). The current VCU President has stated he wants the University to become a Top 50 Research University nationally, primarily focused on the Health systems. Health Diagnostic Laboratories, which was founded by a VCU grad in 2009, has grown from 100 employees to 1,000 in 5 years. Recently donated $4 million dollars to the new VCU practice facility.

The second VCU becomes serious about football, Shaka Smart leaves. VCU has consistently made the correct decision regarding its Men's Basketball program to this point, and believe that Shaka is an immeasurable asset. VCU barely has a Club football team, and unless a donor decides to give about $65 million directly to start funding a football program, it won't happen. There isn't any available land in downtown Richmond to build a stadium (Redskins just moved their training camp to the only reasonable spot) and that land now can't be touched. All this boils down to football being a non-starter, we are even farther behind the University of Richmond who has an FCS program (but not desire to move to FBS).

I'm adding the A10's Basketball Expense list to the thread

VCU: $ 5.05 Million***
Richmond: $ 4.16 Million
Dayton: $3.9 Million
Saint Louis: $ 3.3 Million

Overall Athletic Expenses:

VCU: $25.74 Million
Richmond: $23.7 Million
Dayton: $21.3 Million
Saint Louis: $14.66 Million

Adding any of these programs will give said programs more money for their Athletic programs. I think the Big East would be wise to consider the Leadership at each of these schools (maybe that's why VCU has not received support from Georgetown). Posters like to say, "well when they reach the Big East their recruiting will get better" or "When they receive another $3 million a year, from the TV contract, they can improve". If I were the head of the Big East, I would want trusted decision makers, to be given the money from the contracts.

*** VCU's budget rose considerably, after Shaka was approached by UCLA, and other schools. Instead of demanding a large raise, he demanded a larger raise for his assistants (he has lost 3 to head coaching jobs, one is now in the Big South and undefeated in his first year). As well as a larger recruiting budget, allowing him access to a private jet to personally scout players. This may, or may have not, led to VCU recruiting the 12th best class for next year.

[aughnanure]

I guess the endgame thought for me is this:

Is it possible to be happy where one is at when there's something better out there?

And how do you think us C7 schools feel?

Unless there's a whole bunch of you guys are starting football (or going to the BCS level), there isn't anything else "out there", right?

Oh come on. Just pointing out that we were in the best, and had to watch a ton of other teams leave us. You're not the only ones who feel left out. I do think this Big East will be better long-term, but it still sucks to have it happen.