Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[Xudash]

[/quote]

1. You need to quit being a defensive child.

2. You need to show some respect to your fellow posters.

3. You need to actually understand what you are reading before going off like a douchebag.

Maybe you didn't realize but up until a few months ago all three of those schools i mentioned were considered "Mid-Majors". So calling any potential members mid-majors like the poster I was actually responding to did, then he would be insulting our newest members. Which is what I was taking offense of. I was pointing out his hypocrisy.

Oh and if I did want to go down that road, i'd say you got all those wins while playing in a mid-major conference, and that you would have been nothing more than fodder in the old school Big East. But you're right, I don't want to go down that road. I'll just be happy with my schools two final fours and place in the top ten of all time wins. Oh and the better and more famous basketball alumni.[/quote]

1. I'm not being a defensive child. Never suggest to someone that they should show respect to fellow posters by referring to that individual as a "child." That was a very stupid thing to do; you lost your credibility in that one sentence.

2. My general approach to message boards is to be respectful, but when I read something that's idiotic that has to do with Xavier, I'll respond with an appropriate rebuttal.

3. I understood what you wrote: you directly implied that Xavier was a mid-major coming into this league.

So, maybe you didn't realize it, but Xavier, over the course of at least the last five years or so, has been regarded as a major program playing in a mid-major conference. We beat teams from the old school Big East regularly in both regular and post-season play. Our OOC schedules have been among the toughest in the nation. Our NCAA track record clearly suggests that we have no problem winning at a high level. And, frankly, the A10 wasn't exactly melba toast.

You really do need to realize something, and it's going to hurt (you, probably not the more balanced St. John's fans who hang around here): Xavier's program is better than St. John's program right now as measured by any key metric: facilities, fan base, resume, etc. I want St. John's to be very good for the sake of this conference. However, what I really find annoying and stupid is when some fan from a long underachieving program sits up on his hind legs and acts like his program has some kind of perceived high status.

[friars321]

This is a complicated discussion but I think it boils down to a couple things.
A. If this league is about building the most powerful basketball only conference- then add VCU and Wichita St and you are all set.
B. If the private, religious, and educational standards are to be upheld- the add Richmond and St. Louis.

I would be in favor of option A. We have enough of a nuclues with the private+catholic schools where I think we can take on 2 outsiders. VCU and Wichita would be different. But they are Basketball only, perennial top 25 programs, have a national brand, and cement the league as legit. It really depends on what the presidents + fox can agree on or deem most important.

I hope I'm reading something into this that isn't there, but did I just read a PC fan taking shots at SLU?

Which would be surprising, because PC has been the most positive fanbase (all considered) of anyone.

Nope, no distain here. My previous post in this thread highlighted that when you consider EVERYTHING involved, SLU is the best option and fit for the conference. They do meet all the criteria and I think almost everyone is in agreement they should be #11. After reading other comments and pondering about it a little more- WSU should not be considered. I do think that expansion is necessary as soon as possible because of the reasons that have been stated in this thread. The 12th spot would come down to VCU, Dayton, Richmond. VCU does not fit the league model and would be the lone outlier- but does their oncourt performance and fan following make them more attractive than the other two? I don't know.

[notkirkcameron]

The Big East will need to expand sooner rather than later. It's just the way that it is in the conference realignment game. While coaches and fans may like the round robin format with a tight-knit league because it's a throwback to the old days... that's exactly the long-term problem (as in it's a concept for the old days). Fox, which needs inventory and TV markets, isn't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league. Madison Square Garden, which needs to sell tickets, isn't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league. And if the Big East is only sending 3 or 4 teams to the NCAA Tournament every year (as opposed to averaging around 5 or 6), then the university presidents aren't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league.

The test for expansion is whether a school brings value to the table even if it's horrible on the court. That's why there's such a focus on institutional fit, TV market, recruiting areas, geography and academics in realignment (much to the chagrin of fans that would rather just add whoever was hot on-the-field/court last year). EVERYONE will have down periods (even the bluest blue bloods like Kentucky, Indiana and UCLA), so an expansion candidate better bring other attributes to the table that don't fluctuate from year-to-year. That's what commissioners and university presidents are paid to do so that they aren't pressured by fans into making short-term focused performance moves.

SLU is a no-brainer in that regard (and I'll be clear here that I have zero connection to that school) - excellent TV market, good recruiting territory, great facilities, fits in geographically and a perfect institutional fit. There's no point in "waiting for a few years" to add them as I've seen suggested by a number of people - there is not a single other school in the Eastern or Central Time Zones that have all of those attributes and all such attributes are never going to change. It's not as if though there's another institution out there that could possibly fit all of those criteria that the Big East could be hoping will pop out of nowhere, so waiting in the case of SLU is pointless. I honestly don't understand why there's any consternation over SLU when looking at the big picture factors that matter in conference realignment - who gives a crap how they'll play next year? This is about a long-term move and solidifying the Big East's TV market, institutional and recruiting area strength.

Now, the issue, of course, is school #12. The 3 realistic candidates (meaning no geographic outliers like Gonzaga regardless of how much fans wish that it was possible) are Dayton, Richmond and VCU. Each of them has a major wart at the university president level - Dayton's market is adjacent to and/or overlaps with Xavier's market, Richmond is a small institution and VCU is a public school. A year ago, I thought institutional fit ought to prevail over all, which is why I placed Dayton and Richmond as more desirable options over VCU despite the on-the-court metrics. However, I've shifted a bit and would give the nod to VCU at this point. Beyond the on-the-court performance (which has obviously been impressive even in the pre-Shaka Smart years), VCU's fan base (both in terms of size and where they live on the East Coast) is the difference-maker. Watching the A-10 Tournament last year at the Barclays Center and seeing all of those seats filled with VCU fans was probably the best sales pitch that the school could have possibly have had for the Big East. I believe that keeping the Big East Tournament at Madison Square Garden is a critical issue for the Big East university presidents if only as a symbol of perceived power, and that means that there's the practical issue of selling tickets to that event. VCU can bring at least some of the sheer numbers of people that Syracuse and UConn had provided in the past in a way that no other viable expansion candidate could. That's not the only issue in VCU's favor (Eastern TV market and strong on-the-court performances are obviously very prominent), but if you're going to sell a bunch of insular private school presidents on adding a massive public school, the ability to keep MSG is a pretty large emotional card to play. VCU's geographic location and the fact that it's arguably pretty similar academically to the large urban Big East schools like DePaul and St. John's make them at least palatable despite being a public school (which, whether we like it or not, will continue to be a major source of angst with the Big East presidents).

In contrast, Wichita State is a non-starter for the Big East. This has nothing to do with their on-the-court abilities (which have been fantastic recently) and everything to do with the fact that they bring NOTHING to the table otherwise. They don't have a large TV market. They aren't geographically close to anyone other Creighton. They have a non-existent recruiting area. They are a public institution with significantly lower academic standards than the Big East schools and all of the other candidates (including VCU). There simply isn't a single long-term off-the-court metric that the Big East university presidents care about that Wichita State meets here. They are the quintessential example of a school that the Big East would want nothing to do with whenever they have their inevitable down period on-the-court, which is why they shouldn't (and won't) be considered for expansion.

So, all-in-all, the Big East needs to add SLU and VCU sooner rather than later. Once again, there isn't a magical under-the-radar school in an attractive TV market that the Big East would want that's going to pop out of nowhere with the exception of MAYBE Duquesne (which is an institutional fit in Pittsburgh, but has been soooooooo awful on-the-court that it would take a Final Four run from them to be viable), so waiting isn't going to improve the expansion options here. The Big East needs to keep Fox and Madison Square Garden happy - a 10-school league is a quaint romantic concept that simply won't survive in a world where TV markets and inventory rule all.

I agree, Wichita State is a complete non-starter for the Big East. It's a tiny market with lousy academic standards that doesn't match the rest of the Big East. While they're successful now, remember Southern Illinois. What will the Shockers look like in 10 years? They might be good, they might be terrible, but they will still be a lousy academic school in the 67th-largest market in the country.

As for VCU, you lay out a good case, but at the same time, VCU kind of impresses me as "Wichita State East." They're the same kind of small-market, public school, with transient Cinderella success and lousy academics; basically, the same traits that we're disparaging Wichita State for having. While VCU's academics are slightly better than Wichita State (#167 ranked among National Universities), if admitted, they would still be the lowest-ranked school in the Big East.

National Ranks
Georgetown (20)
Marquette (75)
DePaul (121)
Seton Hall (128)
St. Johns (152)

Regional Ranks
Creighton (#1 Midwest)
Butler (#2 Midwest)
Xavier (#4 Midwest)
Villanova (#1 North)
Providence (#2 North)

Expansion Discussion Candidates
UMass (91)
Saint Louis (101)
Dayton (112)
VCU (167)
Wichita State (NR)


I also think you overestimate VCU's success in the pre-Shaka years. VCU's 2011 Final Four run remains the only time in program history that VCU has ever gotten past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament. Their entire program's NCAA Tournament record with someone not named Shaka Smart at the helm is 5-9. Yes, Smart has turned down various jobs (Illinois being the most prominent in these parts), but you know who else turned down the Illinois job? Tom Crean in 2003, only to bolt for Indiana 5 years later. Does VCU have a "Buzz Williams" waiting in the wings, or do they have the clout to draw a top coach to Richmond? The safe money would appear to be in the negative.

Finally, VCU's attendance is not that spectacular. They averaged 7,693 fans per home game in 2012-13....9 more than DePaul, who among current Big East members was 8th out of 10 last season, with only Seton Hall and St. John's drawing fewer fans on average.


Wichita State
Type: Public
Market size: 67th
US News Ranking: Not Rated
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 10,312
NCAA Tournament Record since 1974 (when VCU started their program): 9-8
Final Fours since 1974: 1

VCU
Type: Public
Market size: 57th
US News Ranking: 167
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 7,693
NCAA Tournament Record: 12-12
Final Fours since 1974: 1

[cm5yz6]

The Big East will need to expand sooner rather than later. It's just the way that it is in the conference realignment game. While coaches and fans may like the round robin format with a tight-knit league because it's a throwback to the old days... that's exactly the long-term problem (as in it's a concept for the old days). Fox, which needs inventory and TV markets, isn't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league. Madison Square Garden, which needs to sell tickets, isn't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league. And if the Big East is only sending 3 or 4 teams to the NCAA Tournament every year (as opposed to averaging around 5 or 6), then the university presidents aren't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league.

The test for expansion is whether a school brings value to the table even if it's horrible on the court. That's why there's such a focus on institutional fit, TV market, recruiting areas, geography and academics in realignment (much to the chagrin of fans that would rather just add whoever was hot on-the-field/court last year). EVERYONE will have down periods (even the bluest blue bloods like Kentucky, Indiana and UCLA), so an expansion candidate better bring other attributes to the table that don't fluctuate from year-to-year. That's what commissioners and university presidents are paid to do so that they aren't pressured by fans into making short-term focused performance moves.

SLU is a no-brainer in that regard (and I'll be clear here that I have zero connection to that school) - excellent TV market, good recruiting territory, great facilities, fits in geographically and a perfect institutional fit. There's no point in "waiting for a few years" to add them as I've seen suggested by a number of people - there is not a single other school in the Eastern or Central Time Zones that have all of those attributes and all such attributes are never going to change. It's not as if though there's another institution out there that could possibly fit all of those criteria that the Big East could be hoping will pop out of nowhere, so waiting in the case of SLU is pointless. I honestly don't understand why there's any consternation over SLU when looking at the big picture factors that matter in conference realignment - who gives a crap how they'll play next year? This is about a long-term move and solidifying the Big East's TV market, institutional and recruiting area strength.

Now, the issue, of course, is school #12. The 3 realistic candidates (meaning no geographic outliers like Gonzaga regardless of how much fans wish that it was possible) are Dayton, Richmond and VCU. Each of them has a major wart at the university president level - Dayton's market is adjacent to and/or overlaps with Xavier's market, Richmond is a small institution and VCU is a public school. A year ago, I thought institutional fit ought to prevail over all, which is why I placed Dayton and Richmond as more desirable options over VCU despite the on-the-court metrics. However, I've shifted a bit and would give the nod to VCU at this point. Beyond the on-the-court performance (which has obviously been impressive even in the pre-Shaka Smart years), VCU's fan base (both in terms of size and where they live on the East Coast) is the difference-maker. Watching the A-10 Tournament last year at the Barclays Center and seeing all of those seats filled with VCU fans was probably the best sales pitch that the school could have possibly have had for the Big East. I believe that keeping the Big East Tournament at Madison Square Garden is a critical issue for the Big East university presidents if only as a symbol of perceived power, and that means that there's the practical issue of selling tickets to that event. VCU can bring at least some of the sheer numbers of people that Syracuse and UConn had provided in the past in a way that no other viable expansion candidate could. That's not the only issue in VCU's favor (Eastern TV market and strong on-the-court performances are obviously very prominent), but if you're going to sell a bunch of insular private school presidents on adding a massive public school, the ability to keep MSG is a pretty large emotional card to play. VCU's geographic location and the fact that it's arguably pretty similar academically to the large urban Big East schools like DePaul and St. John's make them at least palatable despite being a public school (which, whether we like it or not, will continue to be a major source of angst with the Big East presidents).

In contrast, Wichita State is a non-starter for the Big East. This has nothing to do with their on-the-court abilities (which have been fantastic recently) and everything to do with the fact that they bring NOTHING to the table otherwise. They don't have a large TV market. They aren't geographically close to anyone other Creighton. They have a non-existent recruiting area. They are a public institution with significantly lower academic standards than the Big East schools and all of the other candidates (including VCU). There simply isn't a single long-term off-the-court metric that the Big East university presidents care about that Wichita State meets here. They are the quintessential example of a school that the Big East would want nothing to do with whenever they have their inevitable down period on-the-court, which is why they shouldn't (and won't) be considered for expansion.

So, all-in-all, the Big East needs to add SLU and VCU sooner rather than later. Once again, there isn't a magical under-the-radar school in an attractive TV market that the Big East would want that's going to pop out of nowhere with the exception of MAYBE Duquesne (which is an institutional fit in Pittsburgh, but has been soooooooo awful on-the-court that it would take a Final Four run from them to be viable), so waiting isn't going to improve the expansion options here. The Big East needs to keep Fox and Madison Square Garden happy - a 10-school league is a quaint romantic concept that simply won't survive in a world where TV markets and inventory rule all.

I agree, Wichita State is a complete non-starter for the Big East. It's a tiny market with lousy academic standards that doesn't match the rest of the Big East. While they're successful now, remember Southern Illinois. What will the Shockers look like in 10 years? They might be good, they might be terrible, but they will still be a lousy academic school in the 67th-largest market in the country.

As for VCU, you lay out a good case, but at the same time, VCU kind of impresses me as "Wichita State East." They're the same kind of small-market, public school, with transient success; basically, the same traits that we're disparaging Wichita State for having. While VCU's academics are slightly better than Wichita State (#167 ranked among National Universities), if admitted, they would still be the lowest-ranked school in the Big East.

National Ranks
Georgetown (20)
Marquette (75)
DePaul (121)
Seton Hall (128)
St. Johns (152)

Regional Ranks
Creighton (#1 Midwest)
Butler (#2 Midwest)
Xavier (#4 Midwest)
Villanova (#1 North)
Providence (#2 North)

Expansion Discussion Candidates
UMass (91)
Saint Louis (101)
Dayton (112)
VCU (167)
Wichita State (NR)


I also think you overestimate VCU's success in the pre-Shaka years. VCU's 2011 Final Four run remains the only time in program history that VCU has ever gotten past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament. Their entire program's NCAA Tournament record with someone not named Shaka Smart at the helm is 5-9. Yes, Smart has turned down various jobs (Illinois being the most prominent in these parts), but you know who else turned down the Illinois job? Tom Crean in 2003, only to bolt for Indiana 5 years later. Does VCU have a "Buzz Williams" waiting in the wings, or do they have the clout to draw a top coach to Richmond? The safe money would appear to be in the negative.

Wichita State
Type: Public
Market size: 67th
US News Ranking: Not Rated
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 10,312
NCAA Tournament Record since 1974 (when VCU started their program): 9-8
Final Fours since 1974: 1

VCU
Type: Public
Market size: 57th
US News Ranking: 167
2013 Average Basketball attendance: 7,693
NCAA Tournament Record: 12-12
Final Fours since 1974: 1

HAHAHAHAHAHAH i like how you conveniently left out Richmond on here as UR would run circles around the other expansion candidates in academics (#25 National Liberal Arts), but hey include and exclude whoever you want to make your case look better right? good show

[notkirkcameron]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH i like how you conveniently left out Richmond on here as UR would run circles around the other expansion candidates in academics (#25 National Liberal Arts), but hey include and exclude whoever you want to make your case look better right? good show

HAHAHAHAHAHAH i like how you completely missed the point that it was a comparison between VCU and Wichita State, and Richmond wasn't even in the discussion for a reason, but since you brought it up:

Richmond has a lower average attendance (5,960) than both VCU and Wichita State.

Richmond is...in Richmond, so the knock on VCU being in a small TV market is just as valid.

Richmond has a smaller enrollment than VCU, so with fewer eyeballs attending, and fewer alums with a vested interest, Richmond is an even less desirable candidate for Fox.

Richmond has even less NCAA Tournament success than VCU and Wichita State (9 appearances, zero Final Fours, Spiders have never advanced past the Sweet 16, and have a total NCAA record of 7-9.)

Richmond has never earned NCAA Tournament invites in three consecutive years, a feat every current Big East member (and every one of the listed expansion candidates*) has accomplished at least once.
*= except Wichita State and Saint Louis (who both appear on course to hit 3 in a row this year).

In sum, Richmond brings an inconsistent basketball program who occasionally makes it to the NCAA Tournament only to usually flame out early with a small alumni base and low attendance in a small market. They're not on the list because any move to add Richmond would only water down the league. If we were looking for highly-rated liberal arts schools with occasionally successful basketball programs, then Richmond would even lose out to Davidson (#9 Nat'l Liberal Arts College, 6 NCAA Tournament appearances since 2002, 2008 Elite 8, Charlotte #25 National TV market.)

[senditinjerome]

Finally, VCU's attendance is not that spectacular. They averaged 7,693 fans per home game in 2012-13....9 more than DePaul, who among current Big East members was 8th out of 10 last season, with only Seton Hall and St. John's drawing fewer fans on average.

Pretty ridiculous argument, considering VCU's average attendance actually exceeds the building's official capacity of 7,500. They're currently riding a 44 game (and counting) sellout streak. Also, there are expansion plans in the works. And for bigger games, they could use the Richmond Coliseum, which is 12,000 capacity.

[BillEsq]

Wow... must be a slow day expansion threads running rampant.

1. honored that SLU is mentioned as probable #11
2. I think we all know who is and who isn't a likely candidate so at this point its just pissing contest. The question is do you take Dayton or do you have to have a team from the East Coast.
3. regardless of whether or not the BE expands it never fails to amaze me how wild the speculations of potential expansion schools gets. Duke???? seriously? and really any other FBS school for that matter, I don't see the desire to recreate the old BE hybrid model(because it obviously proved to be a stable model).
4. Davidson? ? serious some people get to excited by looking into NCAA appearances as the selection criteria. Davidson has 11 NCAA tourney appearances all time. (a nice number yes) However they play in the Southern Conference. This means that since 1960 they have been the best team of the socon 11 times. The socon is one of the bottom barrel NCAA conferences (this year 29th). This season and nearly every other season every BE school would be picked to run the socon table. I don't think Davidson will compete in the A10. Heck if your going that direction just add Duquesne at least they play in Pittsburgh.
5. Crews bolting st. louis?? serious? Crews is 59. He coached at Evansville for 15 plus years and suffered at army for another 8. Crews has no history of leaving programs, he is going to retire at SLU.

[notkirkcameron]

I'm sure the UMass, SLU, VCU, Richmond, etc. supporters will disagree with me, but I think what this thread has revealed is that there are really no programs out there who scream OH MAN WE GOTTA HAVE THEM!

There's no program out there that successfully hits 1.) consistent NCAA success, 2.) large or comparable media market, 3.) engaged fan base, 4.) No FBS Football, 5.) Academic/institutional fit, and 6.) Geographic relative cohesion. Every suggested program misses on at least one of those.

So at the end of the day, there really aren't any programs that justify watering down what the Big East has right now (institutional cohesion, 3-5 Tournament teams every year, double round-robin). It is my hope, and in fact, it is my prediction that the Big East will be at 10 teams for the foreseeable future, barring some college sports apocalypse (i.e. Notre Dame decides it wants out of the ACC, Connecticut drops FBS football, or insert your own crazy theory here.)

[HoosierPal]

Finally, VCU's attendance is not that spectacular. They averaged 7,693 fans per home game in 2012-13....9 more than DePaul, who among current Big East members was 8th out of 10 last season, with only Seton Hall and St. John's drawing fewer fans on average.

Pretty ridiculous argument, considering VCU's average attendance actually exceeds the building's official capacity of 7,500. They're currently riding a 44 game (and counting) sellout streak. Also, there are expansion plans in the works. And for bigger games, they could use the Richmond Coliseum, which is 12,000 capacity.

According to this article, DePaul's attendance last year was 2,610, or 5,000 less than VCU. DePaul seriously pads the numbers.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20130529/BLOGS04/130529794/depaul-basketball-attendance-well-short-of-mcpier-projections#

[BillEsq]

I'm sure the UMass, SLU, VCU, Richmond, etc. supporters will disagree with me, but I think what this thread has revealed is that there are really no programs out there who scream OH MAN WE GOTTA HAVE THEM!

There's no program out there that successfully hits 1.) consistent NCAA success, 2.) large or comparable media market, 3.) engaged fan base, 4.) No FBS Football, 5.) Academic/institutional fit, and 6.) Geographic relative cohesion. Every suggested program misses on at least one of those.

So at the end of the day, there really aren't any programs that justify watering down what the Big East has right now (institutional cohesion, 3-5 Tournament teams every year, double round-robin). It is my hope, and in fact, it is my prediction that the Big East will be at 10 teams for the foreseeable future, barring some college sports apocalypse (i.e. Notre Dame decides it wants out of the ACC, Connecticut drops FBS football, or insert your own crazy theory here.)

Define consistent Ncaa success. are we talking recent or 1980's. LOL when did UMass make the mention i missed that. You might be surprised that UMass is on the AAC or bust train not the BE or bust train lol.