Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[BillikensWin]

I'm a SLU Law alumnus

Not that it's really relevant to this conversation, but it always strikes me as a bit funny how many lawyers post on these kinds of boards (law student here, btw).

SLU Law, 2004

[Jet915]

This is a complicated discussion but I think it boils down to a couple things.
A. If this league is about building the most powerful basketball only conference- then add VCU and Wichita St and you are all set.
B. If the private, religious, and educational standards are to be upheld- the add Richmond and St. Louis.

I would be in favor of option A. We have enough of a nuclues with the private+catholic schools where I think we can take on 2 outsiders. VCU and Wichita would be different. But they are Basketball only, perennial top 25 programs, have a national brand, and cement the league as legit. It really depends on what the presidents + fox can agree on or deem most important.

How about option:

C. Wait

[Jet915]

I'm a SLU Law alumnus

Not that it's really relevant to this conversation, but it always strikes me as a bit funny how many lawyers post on these kinds of boards (law student here, btw).

SLU Law, 2004

OMG, too many lawyers

[BillikensWin]

This is a complicated discussion but I think it boils down to a couple things.
A. If this league is about building the most powerful basketball only conference- then add VCU and Wichita St and you are all set.
B. If the private, religious, and educational standards are to be upheld- the add Richmond and St. Louis.

I would be in favor of option A. We have enough of a nuclues with the private+catholic schools where I think we can take on 2 outsiders. VCU and Wichita would be different. But they are Basketball only, perennial top 25 programs, have a national brand, and cement the league as legit. It really depends on what the presidents + fox can agree on or deem most important.

I hope I'm reading something into this that isn't there, but did I just read a PC fan taking shots at SLU?

Which would be surprising, because PC has been the most positive fanbase (all considered) of anyone.

[NJRedman]

Seeing as Creighton has been unable to make a deep run in the tournament WITH Doug, I think that's a valid concern. But overall, I think Creighton will be fine. I have more concerns about Butler without Stevens. I never had concerns with Xavier.

Saint Louis is my #1 choice if we expand and deem Gonzaga too far out of the way.

Part of me doesn't want to expand right away because I want to keep spots available in case the D-I football situation goes absolutely nuclear, and some good basketball programs become available (UConn for instance). I also like the true round robin.

I also worry about the ramifications of adding two long-time "mid-major" teams in terms of national perception.

However, adding two teams eventually would help get more teams into the tournament, and hopefully get less teams crowded around .500.

You mean like Butler, Creighton and Xavier?

Do you honestly want to go down this road. Do you honestly believe St. John's program holds a candle to Xavier's program in any regard - facilities, fan support, success - over some meaningful period, which probably should factor in more current time than the era of canvas hightop Converse basketball shoes?

1. You need to quit being a defensive child.

2. You need to show some respect to your fellow posters.

3. You need to actually understand what you are reading before going off like a douchebag.

Maybe you didn't realize but up until a few months ago all three of those schools i mentioned were considered "Mid-Majors". So calling any potential members mid-majors like the poster I was actually responding to did, then he would be insulting our newest members. Which is what I was taking offense of. I was pointing out his hypocrisy.

Oh and if I did want to go down that road, i'd say you got all those wins while playing in a mid-major conference, and that you would have been nothing more than fodder in the old school Big East. But you're right, I don't want to go down that road. I'll just be happy with my schools two final fours and place in the top ten of all time wins. Oh and the better and more famous basketball alumni.

[MackNova]

Creighton and Xavier had to be added. Conference needed to be at least 9 teams realistically, no problem with 10.

But at some point, you don't want the league to be perceived as the Atlantic 10 mixed in with some of the Big East bottom feeders. That's what hurts the perception of this league. Villanova, Marquette and Georgetown are the perceived top teams of the Big East leftovers, for good reason, and none are typically viewed as legitimate title contenders in the preseason most years. St. John's, DePaul, Providence and Seton Hall have barely been relevant for a decade. It's why Creighton is docked too much for losing to Providence. Then you add 3 teams from mid-major conferences, and that hurts the league's perception. Then we'd be add 2 more mid-major teams to make it 5.

We can afford to wait. See if Saint Louis can keep up its success post-Majerus players. See if Richmond can take the next step and string some NCAA berths together. See if some awesome transportation invention is created where it becomes feasible to travel to Gonzaga. Maybe VCU becomes too good where we can't ignore them.

The issue is that we lack the national title contenders in this conference. Hopefully, we can add 2 more teams that can be considered title contenders every several years. Or at least teams that won't drag down the level of this conference.

[NJRedman]

This is a complicated discussion but I think it boils down to a couple things.
A. If this league is about building the most powerful basketball only conference- then add VCU and Wichita St and you are all set.
B. If the private, religious, and educational standards are to be upheld- the add Richmond and St. Louis.

I would be in favor of option A. We have enough of a nuclues with the private+catholic schools where I think we can take on 2 outsiders. VCU and Wichita would be different. But they are Basketball only, perennial top 25 programs, have a national brand, and cement the league as legit. It really depends on what the presidents + fox can agree on or deem most important.

I don't think WSU is the team to invite to be the best BBall conference. Yes, they're better right now but I don't think that success can be kept up with a move to the Big East. I think 20 years down the road alumni and AD's think to themselves that inviting the Shockers was a big mistake. I would SLU in both categories. I don't think the Shockers are being realistically considered. I would assume Creighton wouldn't want them invited.

[NJRedman]

Creighton and Xavier had to be added. Conference needed to be at least 9 teams realistically, no problem with 10.

But at some point, you don't want the league to be perceived as the Atlantic 10 mixed in with some of the Big East bottom feeders. That's what hurts the perception of this league. Villanova, Marquette and Georgetown are the perceived top teams of the Big East leftovers, for good reason, and none are typically viewed as legitimate title contenders in the preseason most years. St. John's, DePaul, Providence and Seton Hall have barely been relevant for a decade. It's why Creighton is docked too much for losing to Providence. Then you add 3 teams from mid-major conferences, and that hurts the league's perception. Then we'd be add 2 more mid-major teams to make it 5.

We can afford to wait. See if Saint Louis can keep up its success post-Majerus players. See if Richmond can take the next step and string some NCAA berths together. See if some awesome transportation invention is created where it becomes feasible to travel to Gonzaga. Maybe VCU becomes too good where we can't ignore them.

The issue is that we lack the national title contenders in this conference. Hopefully, we can add 2 more teams that can be considered title contenders every several years. Or at least teams that won't drag down the level of this conference.

1. Every conference will have losers. Someone has to lose game to you know. If it's not the new teams then it's the older teams. It's not guaranteed that the teams at the top stay there when the new teams come in.

2. You invite teams by what value they have while they stink, not while they are good. It's about money, not about getting national title contenders. Just because a team is a contender now, doesn't mean they will be one in two decades from now. Every team will have down years and even down stretches. It's the value that they bring to the table while down thats really important. Thats why stuff like TV markets come into play.

Also, if you'll recall UConn didn't make a tournament appearance in the first DECADE of their time in the Big East. Everyone goes through stretches of being at the bottom at some point in a programs history.

[muskienick]

This is a complicated discussion but I think it boils down to a couple things.
A. If this league is about building the most powerful basketball only conference- then add VCU and Wichita St and you are all set.
B. If the private, religious, and educational standards are to be upheld- the add Richmond and St. Louis.

I would be in favor of option A. We have enough of a nuclues with the private+catholic schools where I think we can take on 2 outsiders. VCU and Wichita would be different. But they are Basketball only, perennial top 25 programs, have a national brand, and cement the league as legit. It really depends on what the presidents + fox can agree on or deem most important.

If it is one or the other, I'd prefer A as well. The Big East was built on the basis of creating a very strong basketball conference. If that is to continue, the powers that be should not be hog-tied by having to select institutions that have not shown a consistency in producing strong basketball teams, especially trending upward over the past decade or so by high finishes in their respective leagues and invitations to the NCAA Tourney. VCU and WSU do this better than Richmond and SLU (and Dayton as well).

Despite all that, I'd prefer we simply stay where we are now.

[Frank the Tank]

The Big East will need to expand sooner rather than later. It's just the way that it is in the conference realignment game. While coaches and fans may like the round robin format with a tight-knit league because it's a throwback to the old days... that's exactly the long-term problem (as in it's a concept for the old days). Fox, which needs inventory and TV markets, isn't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league. Madison Square Garden, which needs to sell tickets, isn't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league. And if the Big East is only sending 3 or 4 teams to the NCAA Tournament every year (as opposed to averaging around 5 or 6), then the university presidents aren't going to be satisfied with a 10-team league.

The test for expansion is whether a school brings value to the table even if it's horrible on the court. That's why there's such a focus on institutional fit, TV market, recruiting areas, geography and academics in realignment (much to the chagrin of fans that would rather just add whoever was hot on-the-field/court last year). EVERYONE will have down periods (even the bluest blue bloods like Kentucky, Indiana and UCLA), so an expansion candidate better bring other attributes to the table that don't fluctuate from year-to-year. That's what commissioners and university presidents are paid to do so that they aren't pressured by fans into making short-term focused performance moves.

SLU is a no-brainer in that regard (and I'll be clear here that I have zero connection to that school) - excellent TV market, good recruiting territory, great facilities, fits in geographically and a perfect institutional fit. There's no point in "waiting for a few years" to add them as I've seen suggested by a number of people - there is not a single other school in the Eastern or Central Time Zones that have all of those attributes and all such attributes are never going to change. It's not as if though there's another institution out there that could possibly fit all of those criteria that the Big East could be hoping will pop out of nowhere, so waiting in the case of SLU is pointless. I honestly don't understand why there's any consternation over SLU when looking at the big picture factors that matter in conference realignment - who gives a crap how they'll play next year? This is about a long-term move and solidifying the Big East's TV market, institutional and recruiting area strength.

Now, the issue, of course, is school #12. The 3 realistic candidates (meaning no geographic outliers like Gonzaga regardless of how much fans wish that it was possible) are Dayton, Richmond and VCU. Each of them has a major wart at the university president level - Dayton's market is adjacent to and/or overlaps with Xavier's market, Richmond is a small institution and VCU is a public school. A year ago, I thought institutional fit ought to prevail over all, which is why I placed Dayton and Richmond as more desirable options over VCU despite the on-the-court metrics. However, I've shifted a bit and would give the nod to VCU at this point. Beyond the on-the-court performance (which has obviously been impressive even in the pre-Shaka Smart years), VCU's fan base (both in terms of size and where they live on the East Coast) is the difference-maker. Watching the A-10 Tournament last year at the Barclays Center and seeing all of those seats filled with VCU fans was probably the best sales pitch that the school could have possibly have had for the Big East. I believe that keeping the Big East Tournament at Madison Square Garden is a critical issue for the Big East university presidents if only as a symbol of perceived power, and that means that there's the practical issue of selling tickets to that event. VCU can bring at least some of the sheer numbers of people that Syracuse and UConn had provided in the past in a way that no other viable expansion candidate could. That's not the only issue in VCU's favor (Eastern TV market and strong on-the-court performances are obviously very prominent), but if you're going to sell a bunch of insular private school presidents on adding a massive public school, the ability to keep MSG is a pretty large emotional card to play. VCU's geographic location and the fact that it's arguably pretty similar academically to the large urban Big East schools like DePaul and St. John's make them at least palatable despite being a public school (which, whether we like it or not, will continue to be a major source of angst with the Big East presidents).

In contrast, Wichita State is a non-starter for the Big East. This has nothing to do with their on-the-court abilities (which have been fantastic recently) and everything to do with the fact that they bring NOTHING to the table otherwise. They don't have a large TV market. They aren't geographically close to anyone other Creighton. They have a non-existent recruiting area. They are a public institution with significantly lower academic standards than the Big East schools and all of the other candidates (including VCU). There simply isn't a single long-term off-the-court metric that the Big East university presidents care about that Wichita State meets here. They are the quintessential example of a school that the Big East would want nothing to do with whenever they have their inevitable down period on-the-court, which is why they shouldn't (and won't) be considered for expansion.

So, all-in-all, the Big East needs to add SLU and VCU sooner rather than later. Once again, there isn't a magical under-the-radar school in an attractive TV market that the Big East would want that's going to pop out of nowhere with the exception of MAYBE Duquesne (which is an institutional fit in Pittsburgh, but has been soooooooo awful on-the-court that it would take a Final Four run from them to be viable), so waiting isn't going to improve the expansion options here. The Big East needs to keep Fox and Madison Square Garden happy - a 10-school league is a quaint romantic concept that simply won't survive in a world where TV markets and inventory rule all.