big picture view of Big East teams

[mel ott]

My new advice for real participants and fans of the Big East is to put both Stever and FriarFan on ignore. I did it with Friar Fan first, but still have to read Stever's bs and also then get FF's input. Ignore them both and this will take away about 90% of the negative feel this board is getting. Maybe for everyone else, try not to act like your school's success is based on you being a great fan. If your team did well in the last decade or so, it doesn't give you the qualifications to question or rank how other teams are going to produce in the future.

[bluejayfanatic]

Butler and Xavier didn't have tourney success with great seeds.

I looked into it and found out that this argument doesn't pass scrutiny. I was curious and looked at Butler and Xavier's seeds in their recent tournament successes to see who they had to beat to get to the Sweet 16. The only year Butler had tourney success with a bad seed (within the 7-10 range) was 2011. Xavier had a bad seed in 2012 but had to get through mighty #15 seed Lehigh to reach the Sweet 16 that year. So the only year Xavier had tourney success with a bad seed without a bracket busting wide open was 2004.

This is not to discount Butler and Xavier's fantastic success in the postseason in the past 10 years or so. All of their runs have been extremely impressive. However, it's not true that Creighton, Butler, and Xavier all had similar poor seeding over the years. I think that's a result of the poor position of the MVC, which was tougher than the Horizon (good enough to prevent Creighton from running through the league at 16-2 or 17-1 every year), but weaker and with a worse reputation than the A10.

[JAY DOG]

FryerFan,
Wichita State troll?
Hilarious.
Creighton grad and season ticket holder since 1986, back when your parents were raising such a fine end-product.
I have some great thread ideas for you to start as you make your 30-40 posts today.
"What will the Big East be like in 2020?"
"I watched that Vilunoava team and they are pretty good!"
"I have already talked about the AAC here this week, What Other conference should I talk about on this Big East forum?"

Keep 'em coming, Rock Star!

[ljay]

Creighton has not made 17 straight ncaa tournaments. They have made 9 in 20 yrs, with only 3 games won.

Where did you get that 17 straight number? That is redonkulous.

Why go back 20 years? The early 90's were so bad due to a horrible hire that the school almost folded the athletics program.

The 9 NCAA's are in the last 15 years dippy-do. You sound like a politician parsing statistics to support your latest boondoggle.

[hoyahooligan]

Just thought i would do some quick research on Creighton vs Georgetown. Creighton is a question mark and Georgetown is a lock... whatever that means. From the 08-09 season, CU is 11-5 vs the BCS conferences in pre-conference games while GU is 9-5. As a 'lock' You are probably thinking that GU has a better record if we include the post-season. So if we include the post-season, CU is 14-10 while GU is 9-7. I thought this to be very strange since GU is a powerhouse and CU is the mid-major trying to make it in a major conference. Fact is you have to go back to GU's Final Four run in 06-07 to find the last time they beat a BCS team in the post-season. They have also lost to 4 non-BCS teams since then which include FL ATL, Ohio, VCU and Davidson. With the exception of Ohio, the other 3 non-BCS schools went on to have arguably the best seasons in their school's history. Maybe seeding and luck have a lot to do with success in the NCAA tourney, but if you look at the last 5-6 years and want to argue GU is a lock and CU will struggle, I'll wait until i see the results.

Sure let's just throw out all of Georgetown's wins over BE schools. That seems legit. Oh and let's throw out their sweet 16 and Final 4 seasons as well. And Let's compare Georgetown beating Duke vs. Creighton Beating Nebraska.

[stever20]

Just thought i would do some quick research on Creighton vs Georgetown. Creighton is a question mark and Georgetown is a lock... whatever that means. From the 08-09 season, CU is 11-5 vs the BCS conferences in pre-conference games while GU is 9-5. As a 'lock' You are probably thinking that GU has a better record if we include the post-season. So if we include the post-season, CU is 14-10 while GU is 9-7. I thought this to be very strange since GU is a powerhouse and CU is the mid-major trying to make it in a major conference. Fact is you have to go back to GU's Final Four run in 06-07 to find the last time they beat a BCS team in the post-season. They have also lost to 4 non-BCS teams since then which include FL ATL, Ohio, VCU and Davidson. With the exception of Ohio, the other 3 non-BCS schools went on to have arguably the best seasons in their school's history. Maybe seeding and luck have a lot to do with success in the NCAA tourney, but if you look at the last 5-6 years and want to argue GU is a lock and CU will struggle, I'll wait until i see the results.

Sure let's just throw out all of Georgetown's wins over BE schools. That seems legit. Oh and let's throw out their sweet 16 and Final 4 seasons as well. And Let's compare Georgetown beating Duke vs. Creighton Beating Nebraska.

Not to mention the fact that Creighton will be losing their best player ever after this year. And just love how Creighton fans bring up post season records- when in 4/6 year's they've played in NIT,CBI,CIT. Like beating South Dakota means much.

[OutlawWales]

Just thought i would do some quick research on Creighton vs Georgetown. Creighton is a question mark and Georgetown is a lock... whatever that means. From the 08-09 season, CU is 11-5 vs the BCS conferences in pre-conference games while GU is 9-5. As a 'lock' You are probably thinking that GU has a better record if we include the post-season. So if we include the post-season, CU is 14-10 while GU is 9-7. I thought this to be very strange since GU is a powerhouse and CU is the mid-major trying to make it in a major conference. Fact is you have to go back to GU's Final Four run in 06-07 to find the last time they beat a BCS team in the post-season. They have also lost to 4 non-BCS teams since then which include FL ATL, Ohio, VCU and Davidson. With the exception of Ohio, the other 3 non-BCS schools went on to have arguably the best seasons in their school's history. Maybe seeding and luck have a lot to do with success in the NCAA tourney, but if you look at the last 5-6 years and want to argue GU is a lock and CU will struggle, I'll wait until i see the results.

Sure let's just throw out all of Georgetown's wins over BE schools. That seems legit. Oh and let's throw out their sweet 16 and Final 4 seasons as well. And Let's compare Georgetown beating Duke vs. Creighton Beating Nebraska.

Not to mention the fact that Creighton will be losing their best player ever after this year. And just love how Creighton fans bring up post season records- when in 4/6 year's they've played in NIT,CBI,CIT. Like beating South Dakota means much.

Great point.

It's much better to just ignore what the mighty and glorious Hoyas have done in their past 6 years because, hey they made a Final Four before that.

Let's ignore that in 2008 the Hoyas had a #2 seed, only to get knocked out in the same round of 32 that Creighton has been to repeatedly but doesn't mean anything. To Davidson.

Let's ignore that in 2009 the Hoyas went to the very same NIT tournament that Creighton did -- the one that "gets coaches fired" and is meaningless. Georgetown was a #6 seed in the NIT that year.

Let's ignore that in 2010 the Hoyas had a #3 seed, only to lose in the round of 64 -- you know, not even get out of that first game -- to the mighty, mighty #14 seed Ohio.

Let's ignore that in 2011 the Hoyas had a #6 seed -- still better than any seed that Creighton, despite conference championships and near 30 win seasons has been able to get -- only to, once again, lose in the round of 64 to another lower seeded team in VCU.

Let's ignore that in 2012 the Hoyas had yet another top three seed (a #3 seed again), only to lose again in the round of 32 to NC State.

And of course let's ignore that in 2013 the Hoyas had still another top seed -- this time another #2 seed -- only to lose, yet again, in the round of 64 to the powerhouse that is Florida Gulf Coast.

I mean, sure there's every reason to think Georgetown will continue to be "elite" forever. I mean, final fours at one point mean everything, right? Creighton's post season recored in the last several years must be meaningless. Because it's far better to, in the span of six years, take two #2 seeds, two #3 seeds, and #6 seed, and similarly never get past the round of 32. Makes perfect sense. JTIII must be a coaching God, based on that track record of recent performance.

[MUBoxer]

Great point.

It's much better to just ignore what the mighty and glorious Hoyas have done in their past 6 years because, hey they made a Final Four before that.

Let's ignore that in 2008 the Hoyas had a #2 seed, only to get knocked out in the same round of 32 that Creighton has been to repeatedly but doesn't mean anything. To Davidson.

Let's ignore that in 2009 the Hoyas went to the very same NIT tournament that Creighton did -- the one that "gets coaches fired" and is meaningless. Georgetown was a #6 seed in the NIT that year.

Let's ignore that in 2010 the Hoyas had a #3 seed, only to lose in the round of 64 -- you know, not even get out of that first game -- to the mighty, mighty #14 seed Ohio.

Let's ignore that in 2011 the Hoyas had a #6 seed -- still better than any seed that Creighton, despite conference championships and near 30 win seasons has been able to get -- only to, once again, lose in the round of 64 to another lower seeded team in VCU.

Let's ignore that in 2012 the Hoyas had yet another top three seed (a #3 seed again), only to lose again in the round of 32 to NC State.

And of course let's ignore that in 2013 the Hoyas had still another top seed -- this time another #2 seed -- only to lose, yet again, in the round of 64 to the powerhouse that is Florida Gulf Coast.

I mean, sure there's every reason to think Georgetown will continue to be "elite" forever. I mean, final fours at one point mean everything, right? Creighton's post season recored in the last several years must be meaningless. Because it's far better to, in the span of six years, take two #2 seeds, two #3 seeds, and #6 seed, and similarly never get past the round of 32. Makes perfect sense. JTIII must be a coaching God, based on that track record of recent performance.

In those years GTown was losing and winning against considerably better teams than Creighton. last year CU played WI, SMC, and WSU 3 times. GT played UCLA, Indiana, MU 2x, Pitt, ND, Lousville, Cinci, Cuse 3x, UConn (would've made tournament), and Nova. Starting to see the difference in your "near 30 win seasons" and GT's seasons? It's about who you play and you didn't play that much in the past so you can't argue about seeding in previous years. There's very good reasons to believe GT will continue to remain on top at least during the regular season. Playing 13 games against tournament caliber opponents will be new to you that's why everybody is saying it's less likely... not impossible, just less likely.

[aughnanure]

The "postseason" is the NCAA Tournament. That's it.

[OutlawWales]

Great point.

It's much better to just ignore what the mighty and glorious Hoyas have done in their past 6 years because, hey they made a Final Four before that.

Let's ignore that in 2008 the Hoyas had a #2 seed, only to get knocked out in the same round of 32 that Creighton has been to repeatedly but doesn't mean anything. To Davidson.

Let's ignore that in 2009 the Hoyas went to the very same NIT tournament that Creighton did -- the one that "gets coaches fired" and is meaningless. Georgetown was a #6 seed in the NIT that year.

Let's ignore that in 2010 the Hoyas had a #3 seed, only to lose in the round of 64 -- you know, not even get out of that first game -- to the mighty, mighty #14 seed Ohio.

Let's ignore that in 2011 the Hoyas had a #6 seed -- still better than any seed that Creighton, despite conference championships and near 30 win seasons has been able to get -- only to, once again, lose in the round of 64 to another lower seeded team in VCU.

Let's ignore that in 2012 the Hoyas had yet another top three seed (a #3 seed again), only to lose again in the round of 32 to NC State.

And of course let's ignore that in 2013 the Hoyas had still another top seed -- this time another #2 seed -- only to lose, yet again, in the round of 64 to the powerhouse that is Florida Gulf Coast.

I mean, sure there's every reason to think Georgetown will continue to be "elite" forever. I mean, final fours at one point mean everything, right? Creighton's post season recored in the last several years must be meaningless. Because it's far better to, in the span of six years, take two #2 seeds, two #3 seeds, and #6 seed, and similarly never get past the round of 32. Makes perfect sense. JTIII must be a coaching God, based on that track record of recent performance.

In those years GTown was losing and winning against considerably better teams than Creighton. last year CU played WI, SMC, and WSU 3 times. GT played UCLA, Indiana, MU 2x, Pitt, ND, Lousville, Cinci, Cuse 3x, UConn (would've made tournament), and Nova. Starting to see the difference in your "near 30 win seasons" and GT's seasons? It's about who you play and you didn't play that much in the past so you can't argue about seeding in previous years. There's very good reasons to believe GT will continue to remain on top at least during the regular season. Playing 13 games against tournament caliber opponents will be new to you that's why everybody is saying it's less likely... not impossible, just less likely.

Gee, I was totally unaware that Georgetown played tougher in conference games than Creighton in the past. Thanks for clarifying that.

Just want to make sure that I'm understanding the point of all of the "old" big east teams here -- the point is that because you have historically played good teams, gotten ridiculously great seeds year after year, and then lost to mid-major teams repeatedly (seriously -- four top three seeds in six years resulting in not a single trip to the second weekend), that's all cool. But anything Creighton has done, with less opportunity, should definitely be used to suggest that Creighton is more like Seton Hall than Xavier or Butler, in terms of capability of having success moving forward.

Cool.