Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[Omaha1]

Ok, it's Christmas Eve, I am stuck in a mostly empty office with not much to do, so here goes. The idea that Wichita is Creighton's longtime rival and is worthy of a Big East invite has no merit and would not even be remotely considered by those making these decisions. The fact is that Creighton had been the only consistent team in the MVC. WSU is not a long time rival. When I started going to school, Indiana State was our biggest rival. By the time I finished, Southern Illinois was our biggest foe (Korver era). Since then, we have had it shift from Illinois State, Northern Iowa, Missouri State, and even Drake for 1 year. Yes, the rivalry with WSU was very intense the last few years, but it's not like that has always been the case. Here is how WSU has finished in the 10 team mid major MVC over the last 25 years (2, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, 8, 10, 7, 3, 8, 9, 9, 5, 3, 2, 2, 1, 6, 9, 5, 2, 2, 1, 2). In 25 years they have 2 conference titles, no conference tournament championships, and only 3 NCAAT bids. Their average and median conference finish was 5th place out of 10 (i.e. middle of the pack MVC). In comparison, during that same period Creighton has won the regular season title 6 times, tournament title 10 times, with 11 NCAAT appearances. Creighton's average finish was 3.6 with a median of 3. The last time Creighton finished below 4th in the conference was 1997, for WSU you only have to go back to 2009, when they were 6th.

That was longer than I planned but my point is that Wichita might be good now, but they have not evidenced that they are a consistent program, even in the MVC. Add that to bad fit, poor education, difficult location, they really merit no consideration and I find it highly unlikely that the president's of the Big East schools would bother to even consider them nearly as long as posters on this boards.

Hope this puts this to bed so we can get back to being excited about this year and not some teams that hypothetically may or may not get invited in the future. Me personally, I like the 10 we have just fine.

ding, ding, ding... we have a winner

[Friarfan2]

My idea for conference expansion:

Stay at 10 teams for a while.

This season has been so much fun already, and I can't wait for the round robin format. I think the round robin will really add something unique to this league that we haven't had since the expansion mess of the late 1990's. Really excited about it.

If there comes a time when gonzaga, byu, and whomever else are logistically and financially appealing options, explore them. But no expansion for the sake of expansion. And let's leave the wichita state and vcu type of schools out of the discussion. No offense, but they simply don't fit the with the type of schools that our conference, better yet, our community, is trying to identify and market itself as. Some recent short term success and current quality teams doesn't justify us making a 20-30 year commitment to them when they clearly don't belong. St Louis is acceptable, but not good enough to move the needle from status quo to let's expand. Dayton has no chance.

And UConn is welcome if they want to join for all sports but put football in the mac, and of course they sign a 30 year grant of rights for media rights and agree to a billion dollar exit fee. Short of that, they aren't welcome. We don't want anyone using this conference, I mean community, as a stepping stone for another goal.

And sorry cincy, we already have xavier, whom we much prefer. Same with you, temple and george washington and uri. You aren't welcome.

Umass? Nah. They don't have any local state fan support, don't have much of a successful program, have a real mid-major stigma about them, and don't kid yourself about them having any presence in the boston market (they don't).

That is all. I think most here would agree with me.

[SJUREDMEN85]

I see uconn mentioned a lot and obviously they're the best team available, but why would they want to join? Don't they need to drop fbs football first for this to even become a possibility? Hell, aren't they better off now in the American even with their small TV contract since they sponsor fbs football?

Of course, it is debatable whether uconn would be better of dropping their football program to fcs, but I haven't even heard a rumor of that happening.

adoraz, the better question is wtf would we want uconn???
They tried to leave us twice not once, so why is everyone here wanted to kiss their asses?
Next year Louisville, and Rutgers are gone and UConn would be left with cincy. They would be with Tulane and Tulsa and those other scrubs lol. I say let uconn rot in the AAC.

They wanted out twice but everyone here wants to add them to the new conference? You people act like we need uconn or something.
wtf would we need yukon?

[Bill Marsh]

I'm curious what you mean by "rightfully so." Do Richmond, St Louis, or Dayton have some kind of birthright to membership in this conference? This is a competitive business. If schools are added simply because they "rightfully" belong but don't bring anything to the mix that adds to the competitive balance, the conference will be diminished and their viability for for lucrative TV contracts will be compromised as well.

The natural fit that would raise interest in this conference even further is Gonzaga. I think it could work with BYU as a travel partner. Many don't. So, if geography is the issue, then the program that will enhance competitive balance and has the right geography is VCU. There really are no other options that enhance competitive balance. One of the usual suspects could be added along with VCU without doing much damage, but there is no way that 2 can be added without the conference being harmed. of course the conference can be content with simply being a group of private Catholic schools who have much in common, but that bears little interest for the basketball watching public. They'll simply be the basketball version of the AAC with a few good teams at the top and a whole lot of dead weight behind that. It's their choice.

[Ixiah]

Ok, it's Christmas Eve, I am stuck in a mostly empty office with not much to do, so here goes. The idea that Wichita is Creighton's longtime rival and is worthy of a Big East invite has no merit and would not even be remotely considered by those making these decisions. The fact is that Creighton had been the only consistent team in the MVC. WSU is not a long time rival. When I started going to school, Indiana State was our biggest rival. By the time I finished, Southern Illinois was our biggest foe (Korver era). Since then, we have had it shift from Illinois State, Northern Iowa, Missouri State, and even Drake for 1 year. Yes, the rivalry with WSU was very intense the last few years, but it's not like that has always been the case. Here is how WSU has finished in the 10 team mid major MVC over the last 25 years (2, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, 8, 10, 7, 3, 8, 9, 9, 5, 3, 2, 2, 1, 6, 9, 5, 2, 2, 1, 2). In 25 years they have 2 conference titles, no conference tournament championships, and only 3 NCAAT bids. Their average and median conference finish was 5th place out of 10 (i.e. middle of the pack MVC). In comparison, during that same period Creighton has won the regular season title 6 times, tournament title 10 times, with 11 NCAAT appearances. Creighton's average finish was 3.6 with a median of 3. The last time Creighton finished below 4th in the conference was 1997, for WSU you only have to go back to 2009, when they were 6th.

That was longer than I planned but my point is that Wichita might be good now, but they have not evidenced that they are a consistent program, even in the MVC. Add that to bad fit, poor education, difficult location, they really merit no consideration and I find it highly unlikely that the president's of the Big East schools would bother to even consider them nearly as long as posters on this boards.

Hope this puts this to bed so we can get back to being excited about this year and not some teams that hypothetically may or may not get invited in the future. Me personally, I like the 10 we have just fine.

Creighton has a great basketball program, fan support, and put a good basketball team on the floor. In fact I have enjoyed listening to Bluejay Banter on the radio after games because I like the interesting conversation. However, the post above is just not being fair. Would not the past 10 years be a reasonable evaluation of consistency (i.e. seasons the players would have memory of)? Here are how the respective teams have done over the past decade:

Creighton: Avg. record = 23.2 - 10.6

Tourney success:

NCAA - 4 appearances (64) x 2 and (32) x 2
NIT - 4 appearances (rd 1) x 3 and (rd 2) x 1

Wichita State: Average record 22.5 - 11.4

Tourney success:
NCAA - 3 appearances (4) x 1, (16) x 1, and (64) x 1
NIT - 4 appearances (won) x 1, (opening) x 1, (rd 1) x 1, (rd 2) x 1

If you look at the stats WSU has a slightly worse record but far more postseason success. If you do the "drop your worst season" then WSU actually has a better record over that time frame. I would certainly take a F4 and S16 over an extra tourney appearance and .7 wins.

The poster is conveniently trying to include ONLY the seasons under Altman and McDermott too boost his argument. Okay .. I can do the same thing ... how many times since 1949 (that's as far back as the college poll archive goes) has Creighton been ranked in the top ten by AP?

- Once - that's right - only one time has Creighton EVER been in the top 10! That is consistent - to not be a threat to win an NCAA tournament.
- that's below Navy, Detroit Mercy, etc.

Wichita State? - 46 weeks - Not fair is it.

I am NOT advocating WSU join the Big East as I don't think it would be a good institutional fit. If Marshall stays at WSU they may well outgrow the MVC and move on. Who knows? The argument that Creighton is ridiculously better then WSU just does not add up. I do think WSU is going to be the better team on the court for the foreseeable future as Creighton loses McDermott, Wragge, Gibbs, and Manigat to graduation. That is a LOT to replace.

[Bluejay]

Shocker fans make me laugh when they talk about their NIT "runs".

Wichita State and Nebraska fans are the only fans in the entire country that care about the NIT and boast about NIT successes.

[cr8onbb]

Nice first post, WSU fan. How many times have you guys won the MVC tournament? Oh wait, I can count that without using either hand. Keep trolling...I believe there is still a message board for the MVC out there somewhere.

[Ixiah]

Nice first post, WSU fan. How many times have you guys won the MVC tournament? Oh wait, I can count that without using either hand. Keep trolling...I believe there is still a message board for the MVC out there somewhere.

I am going to not drop to your level with the petty insults. However, it is obvious to ANYONE that is objective that WSU has had the far better post season success both recently and overall. If you want to challenge that statement then I'll gladly debate you on it. Creighton does have a decent shot at making a run this year so I will give you that. It will be interesting to see how Creighton does in the Big East - they look unstoppable at times.

Correcting factual errors is not trolling. Part of being an adult is having a cordial discussion - especially with someone who has a different viewpoint.

[cr8onbb]

What exactly were the factual errors that you were correcting? The only difference in your analysis is that you focused on 10 years rather than 25, and Creighton still had a better record in the time frame you cherry picked to make WSU look "better". I chose 25 years because I pulled data from a few different sites and the one with the shortest amount of history only went back 25 years.

I can't argue with your postseason success last year, it was a nice run. You guys also have a nice team this year and have a shot to make some noise. Regardless of that, the intent of my post was to put to bed the idea that WSU may end up in the Big East. As I have stated and you agreed, WSU is not a fit for the Big East. This is a message board for the Big East. We really don't need to talk about WSU any more than we already have.

Best of luck this year, I will honestly be pulling for to win the conference tournament, especially since that would keep an extra bid from going to someone else as you appear to be at large bound anyway.

[NJRedman]

1. No WSU. The only real options right now are SLU, VCU and Dayton.

2. Public is not as big an issue as some are making it out to be. If the Presidents are feeling like a certain school will be a good partner for years to come then they will be invited. Geography, academics and value all play a bigger part. I would even go so far as to say that on the court success is a bigger deal than public vs private.

3. Speaking of on the court success, these decisions are not about what you have done recently on the court but what you bring to the table value wise. Are you a valuable partner that will help the league get a lucrative TV deal in 12 years? Will you help the leagues image? Will you help sell tickets to conference games and the conference tournament? All bigger issues than what you have done the last few years.

4. A big part that people are leaving out is not just how much a school is committed to BBall but how much they are committed to athletics in general. Does a potential candidate have a commitment to all of their sports programs and have a healthy athletic department?

If the conference wants to keep the geographic regions balanced then it comes down to VCU in the east and either SLU or Dayton in the west. If thats the case then SLU has the advantage with bringing a new top 25 TV market with them. To say VCU has no shot means you have not been paying attention.

Also SJU and Marquette will have a new presidents soon so there will be some new people in the mix who could have different outlooks than their predecessors. Also 3 of the 10 schools have non-clergy as presidents (Butler, GTown and Seton Hall). So the idea that everyone is a priest is not correct.