Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[BillEsq]

Alright - you articulate why BU is a bad fit, outside of their performance which I conceded, and agree would have to improve before they were a candidate.

how about because the just de-emphasized their athletic department for a move in to the academic focused Patriot League as of last year.

[booyah]

I know they moved from American East to the Patriot League. Not that either conference is a heavyweight, but isn't that actually a step up in competitiveness? And I realize this is an athletic conference, but there is something to be said for the conference associating with better academic schools as well. I would bet VCU would have already been added, public or not, if they had BU's usnews #41 ranking.

Practically, I dont see why we are in a rush. If BU is worthy, the A10 will poach them. We can just step back, wait five years and see who gets added/floats to the top in the A-10. With our TV contract in hand, the A-10 is basically the Big East's AAA league.

[Bill Marsh]

"" big wins against the nations best teams year after year ""

VCU UD Richmond beat multiple ranked teams on a regular basis every year.

The bottom feeder BE teams that you mention had the luxury of playing Syracuse, Pitt, Ucon, Louisvellle et all at home

UD VCU Richmond don't get the chance, they have to get their ranked wins on the road or neutral sites. Ranked teams don't play away games these teams

Look at UD record against BCS schools over past 10 years, it is something like 15 - 6.

You're dismissing these wins as a product of home court advantage???

In 2009, Providence upset Pitt when they were #1 in the country in late February. Are you suggesting that Dayton VCU, and Richmond would have been knocking off the top team in the country if only they could have gotten them at home???

Two years ago,Providence blew the doors of Louisville, a Final Four team that year, by 31 points. Last year they beat #21 Notre Dame by 17. Three years ago they beat #8 Villanova by 15. Four years ago they beat #19 UConn by 15. Are you saying that those kinds of wins are the product of home court advantage???

When St. John's went on their big run a few years ago, it was the same thing. They beat eventual national champs UConn by 17, #3 Duke by 15, #13 Georgetown by 13, #9 Notre Dame by 18, and #15 Villanova by 13. These were decisive wins, not close games where the crowd made the difference or the ref swallowed his whistle.

Please, get serious. Home court advantage helps but it doesn't account for beating up on some of the best teams in the country as if they were a Division II or an Ivy League team. The point is that the teams that were capable of these kinds of wins were better than their records showed. Their win/loss totals were the product of a brutal schedule, not of being a bad team.

You make a fair point that some of the A10 schools have also VCU obviously has had a run of beating ranked teams. They did it getting to the Final Four if nowhere else. Richmond has had a run similar to PC, including a win over VCU in their final Four season and a win over a top 10 Purdue team. Dayton has had 4 wins over ranked teams in the past 5 years coming into this season, but they did not beat a single top ten team and I would not put them in the same category as PC and St. John's.

The difference between these teams and the Big East teams is that when they are good enough to compete successfully against ranked teams, they are getting recognition and going to the tournament because the soft lower half of the A10 provides them with enough wins to have a good record. Big East teams just as good were getting buried in the Big East without the same recognition because the schedule has been so brutal.

[Edrick]

Southern Illinois (circa 2008) was more attractive than any of these "candidates" that people are being bandied about...

http://www.bbstate.com/teams/SIU/tournament

Since 2007, SIU is 83-115. This year they are 2-8 and such a dumpster fire their coach said this last night...

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketb ... after-loss

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You simply do not consider programs that lack institutional fit because it is MORE LIKELY than not that they are Southern Illinois than something like Memphis, long term, who have basketball success at a public school without major football.

Being a school like UMass (seriously?) or VCU should (and by all indications do) automatically disqualify them. And there's just not requisite quality programs that fit.

Of course expansion is something that you look at, you just don't do so until there are programs that actually add to the quality of your league AND maintain the conference identity.

[stever20]

Southern Illinois (circa 2008) was more attractive than any of these "candidates" that people are bandying about...

http://www.bbstate.com/teams/SIU/tournament

Since 2007, SIU is 83-115. This year they are 2-8 and such a dumpster fire their coach said this last night...

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketb ... after-loss

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You simply do not consider programs that lack institutional fit because it is MORE LIKELY than not that they are Southern Illinois than something like Memphis, long term, who have basketball success at a public school without major football.

Being a school like UMass (seriously?) or VCU should (and by all indications do) automatically disqualify them. And there's just not requisite quality programs that fit.

Of course expansion is something that you look at, you just don't do so until there are programs that actually add to the quality of your league AND maintain the conference identity.

Southern Illinois made the final 4? Nope. VCU isn't a 1 year fad. This current run is a decade old now, and they had a top 15 recruiting class this year. There is nothing that indicates that they are more Southern Illinois than Memphis. Nothing.

[tsmithohio1234]

they are getting recognition and going to the tournament because the soft lower half of the A10 provides them with enough wins to have a good record. Big East teams just as good were getting buried in the

What are you talking about are you serious. You are saying that the committee only looks at number of wins and not RPI, strength of schedule, home vs away games...
How many times have we seen BE ACC and B10 teams make the tournament with 15-19 wins and double digit losses, while mid majors with 25+ wins are left out

[stever20]

they are getting recognition and going to the tournament because the soft lower half of the A10 provides them with enough wins to have a good record. Big East teams just as good were getting buried in the

What are you talking about are you serious. You are saying that the committee only looks at number of wins and not RPI, strength of schedule, home vs away games...
How many times have we seen BE ACC and B10 teams make the tournament with 15-19 wins and double digit losses, while mid majors with 25+ wins are left out

This used to be the case, but it's changed the last several years. Last few years, 18-19 d1 wins is a bare minimum to get in.

[Sactowndog]

You're making my point for me. Butler has no rivalries with the other Big East members except for Xavier because they haven't ever played them. The more you play your conference rivals, the more intense a rivalry becomes. That's why double round robin is so important to building a conference. You play EVERY other conference member at home EVERY year. Your fans get to see them and cheer against them EVERY year. When a league breaks into divisions as it does in 12 team leagues, that doesn't happen.

When you look back a decade from now, you'll find that Hoya fans will be fired up for Butler. And Butler fans will be chomping at the bit in anticipation of the game vs the hated Providence Friars. It ain't there now, but it will be.

Rivalries have as much to do with geographic proximity as frequency. When you bump into the other schools graduates and have to listen to their smack that enhanced the rivalry. When your fighting for recruits in your own backyard that plays into the rivalry. Providence is too far away to be a real rival of Butler. A compact western and eastern division would enhance rivalries both between teams and across divisions.

[anXUfan]

You're making my point for me. Butler has no rivalries with the other Big East members except for Xavier because they haven't ever played them. The more you play your conference rivals, the more intense a rivalry becomes. That's why double round robin is so important to building a conference. You play EVERY other conference member at home EVERY year. Your fans get to see them and cheer against them EVERY year. When a league breaks into divisions as it does in 12 team leagues, that doesn't happen.

When you look back a decade from now, you'll find that Hoya fans will be fired up for Butler. And Butler fans will be chomping at the bit in anticipation of the game vs the hated Providence Friars. It ain't there now, but it will be.

Rivalries have as much to do with geographic proximity as frequency. When you bump into the other schools graduates and have to listen to their smack that enhanced the rivalry. When your fighting for recruits in your own backyard that plays into the rivalry. Providence is too far away to be a real rival of Butler. A compact western and eastern division would enhance rivalries both between teams and across divisions.

I completely agree with Bill on this. The Big East brand - tough ass basketball top to bottom - needs to be reinforced before any expansion should be considered. Rivalries draw eyeballs, and rivalries require familiarity.

[BillEsq]

You're making my point for me. Butler has no rivalries with the other Big East members except for Xavier because they haven't ever played them. The more you play your conference rivals, the more intense a rivalry becomes. That's why double round robin is so important to building a conference. You play EVERY other conference member at home EVERY year. Your fans get to see them and cheer against them EVERY year. When a league breaks into divisions as it does in 12 team leagues, that doesn't happen.

When you look back a decade from now, you'll find that Hoya fans will be fired up for Butler. And Butler fans will be chomping at the bit in anticipation of the game vs the hated Providence Friars. It ain't there now, but it will be.

Rivalries have as much to do with geographic proximity as frequency. When you bump into the other schools graduates and have to listen to their smack that enhanced the rivalry. When your fighting for recruits in your own backyard that plays into the rivalry. Providence is too far away to be a real rival of Butler. A compact western and eastern division would enhance rivalries both between teams and across divisions.

I completely agree with Bill on this. The Big East brand - tough ass basketball top to bottom - needs to be reinforced before any expansion should be considered. Rivalries draw eyeballs, and rivalries require familiarity.

Agreed The Big East needs to be like the other east coast league with a strong brand name recognition, fierce rivalries, and round robin schedule. Its worked for years for the Ivy League. As XUfan states rivalries require familiarity and nothing screams familiarity like Rhode Island and Indiana their like sister states, the hatred between the two has been festering for centuries. Its a proven fact that you can't become familiar with another team without round robins. Furthermore there have been scientific studies that round robins lead to a higher increase of rivalry.

(**note this scientific study did not take into account proximity of rivals or similarity of rival institutions, however it is highly unlikely that these factors are the primary causes and indicators of rivalry. In fact clinical studies have shown models which indicate that after 3,000 years a round robin style play could even create a meaningful rivalry between UC Irvine and Mount St. Mary's.) warning overexposure to round robins could lead to delusions, confusion, and unnecessary sweating during tournament selection processes. Those seeking to use round robins should seek guidance from a licensed brackatologist, in some instances a general enlargement of the rpi, bpi, kenpom, and sagrin ratings will be seen, such increases could lead to a decrease in overall tourney appearances