What it would take for each team to get (or stay) ranked.

[Lavinwood]

Welcome and nice post. I had to laugh at the prospects of a 4-4 DePaul team being ranked though. DePaul and success go together like the Jets and great QB's.

[Bill Marsh]

If either of them go 2-16 or 3-15, they won't be at RPI 100.

That's true, but at least if they enter BE play around 100 and they do poorly in conference play then it would be other BE teams (tournament caliber) beating up on them. For instance, if DePaul enters at #90 and GTown (or another likely tournament team) beats them on the road, wouldn't it help GTown's overall ranking? I wonder what ranking DePaul and SH entered BE play with last year.

Of course it would. That's the way the system. Works. When you beat a team, you steal from them whatever points they've accumulated. If they haven't accumulated much - or anything - then the win isn't worth much. But a win over a team power. Rated in the vicinity of 100 is certainly worth something.

Excellent observation!

[adoraz11]

Updated kenpom rankings:

Villanova- #15 (same)
Georgetown-#18 (was #23) +5
Creighton- #25 (same)
Marquette- #47 (same)
Butler- #58 (was #54) -4
Providence- #62 (was #60) -2
Xavier- #66 (was #64) -2
St. John's- #67 (was #70) +3
DePaul- #113 (was #118) +5 note: not including tonight so this will decrease
Seton Hall- #143 (was #137) -6

Really not much interesting happening yet this week. After this weekend things will change a bit.

In terms of teams making the tournament, usually top 50 will get bids. Right now we have four teams. What's interesting ix that there are four more teams right behind them. SH and DePaul are a little far out now, but we have eight other teams in pretty good standing.

[stever20]

If either of them go 2-16 or 3-15, they won't be at RPI 100.

That's true, but at least if they enter BE play around 100 and they do poorly in conference play then it would be other BE teams (tournament caliber) beating up on them. For instance, if DePaul enters at #90 and GTown (or another likely tournament team) beats them on the road, wouldn't it help GTown's overall ranking? I wonder what ranking DePaul and SH entered BE play with last year.

Of course it would. That's the way the system. Works. When you beat a team, you steal from them whatever points they've accumulated. If they haven't accumulated much - or anything - then the win isn't worth much. But a win over a team power. Rated in the vicinity of 100 is certainly worth something.

Excellent observation!

True- but if they have 8 wins entering conference play and wind up with 10, that's not going to be much of a help. They may enter conference play RPI 100, but at end of the year, they would be 200. With the RPI- all that matters is the record at the end of the year. If Marquette beats Wisconsin tomorrow- they're 9-0, but Wisconsin goes into a funk and end of the year they're 17-14- Marquette in the computers gets credit for beating a 17-14 team, not a 9-0 team.

[billyjack]

Just a reminder, it works in reverse too... so when Boston College improves over course of the season, PC benefits. If BC finishes 20-10, we get the good BC counting towards us. K-State's win over Ole Miss helps Georgetown but hurts Georgia Tech... Every Arizona State win adds a notch to Creighton's belt too... there are so many moving parts... that's why there's a thread here asking us to put away our crystal ball for a little while.

It's kind of like herpes... the ACC has herpes (that's obvious!), and anyone they come in contact with will probably be infected.

[stever20]

Just a reminder, it works in reverse too... so when Boston College improves over course of the season, PC benefits. If BC finishes 20-10, we get the good BC counting towards us. K-State's win over Ole Miss helps Georgetown but hurts Georgia Tech... Every Arizona State win adds a notch to Creighton's belt too... there are so many moving parts... that's why there's a thread here asking us to put away our crystal ball for a little while.

It's kind of like herpes... the ACC has herpes (that's obvious!), and anyone they come in contact with will probably be infected.

You are 100% right about things like BC, etc. I was just correcting Bill on his thoughts on the power rating. There aren't any points or anything like that. Well maybe in power rating systems- but the RPI isn't that at all in the format that he's saying. The ranking at the time of the game doesn't mean anything at all. You don't hear them saying team x is 5-2 against teams ranked top 50 at the time of the game. You just hear them say team x is 3-4 against teams ranked in the top 50(with 2 of the teams that you beat out of the top 50, while 2 of the teams you lost to now in the top 50 end of the year).

[Bill Marsh]

That's true, but at least if they enter BE play around 100 and they do poorly in conference play then it would be other BE teams (tournament caliber) beating up on them. For instance, if DePaul enters at #90 and GTown (or another likely tournament team) beats them on the road, wouldn't it help GTown's overall ranking? I wonder what ranking DePaul and SH entered BE play with last year.

Of course it would. That's the way the system. Works. When you beat a team, you steal from them whatever points they've accumulated. If they haven't accumulated much - or anything - then the win isn't worth much. But a win over a team power. Rated in the vicinity of 100 is certainly worth something.

Excellent observation!

True- but if they have 8 wins entering conference play and wind up with 10, that's not going to be much of a help. They may enter conference play RPI 100, but at end of the year, they would be 200. With the RPI- all that matters is the record at the end of the year. If Marquette beats Wisconsin tomorrow- they're 9-0, but Wisconsin goes into a funk and end of the year they're 17-14- Marquette in the computers gets credit for beating a 17-14 team, not a 9-0 team.

Steve, the committee no longer restricts itself to RPI. Power ratings are a far better measure and wins/losses are not the primary issue with them as they are with RPI.

Where DePaul enters the BE season rated does matter. Power ratings are transactional. If I beat you by more than expected, I take away some of your rating for myself. I increase my rating while yours decreasing. Whatever DePaul brings to conference play will be redistributed among any other conference members who beat them unless DePaull wins some games and takes from others.

That's why every game matters OOC, not just the high profile wins. They all add to a teams resume and they all translate numerically in the various formulas that are used.

RPI is a very poor measure of performance. It was a politically motivated concoction in the sense that it was derived to provide a measure that would discourage teams from running up scores just to get ratings. While the goal was lofty and noble, it resulted in an inferior measure. It persists only because it's been around for a long time now but it's outlived its usefulness. The committee is very much focused these days on getting the 68 best teams. To do so, they use the best measures, which include power ratings as well as RPI, and analysis of individual teams' records.

All we have to know about RPI is that people who bet on games would never use RPI to devise their picks. Not in a million years.

[Bill Marsh]

Updated kenpom rankings:

Villanova- #15 (same)
Georgetown-#18 (was #23) +5
Creighton- #25 (same)
Marquette- #47 (same)
Butler- #58 (was #54) -4
Providence- #62 (was #60) -2
Xavier- #66 (was #64) -2
St. John's- #67 (was #70) +3
DePaul- #113 (was #118) +5 note: not including tonight so this will decrease
Seton Hall- #143 (was #137) -6

Really not much interesting happening yet this week. After this weekend things will change a bit.

In terms of teams making the tournament, usually top 50 will get bids. Right now we have four teams. What's interesting ix that there are four more teams right behind them. SH and DePaul are a little far out now, but we have eight other teams in pretty good standing.

Here's how TeamRankings.com is ranking the Big East after last night:

#7 - Villanova
#48 - Butler
#57 - Creighton
#58 - Georgetown
#65 - Matquette
#84 - St. John's
#85 - Providence
#102 - Xavier
#120 - DePaul
#146 - Seton Hall

Here's how Sagarin sees things this morning:

#6 - Villanova
#19 - Georgetown
#28 - Creighton
#59 - Xavier
#60 - Marquette
#64 - Butler
#78 - Providence
106 - St. John's
159 - DePaul
#165 - Seton Hall

Try to make some sense out of all that.

[Bill Marsh]

Just a reminder, it works in reverse too... so when Boston College improves over course of the season, PC benefits. If BC finishes 20-10, we get the good BC counting towards us. K-State's win over Ole Miss helps Georgetown but hurts Georgia Tech... Every Arizona State win adds a notch to Creighton's belt too... there are so many moving parts... that's why there's a thread here asking us to put away our crystal ball for a little while.

It's kind of like herpes... the ACC has herpes (that's obvious!), and anyone they come in contact with will probably be infected.

[stever20]

Steve, the committee no longer restricts itself to RPI. Power ratings are a far better measure and wins/losses are not the primary issue with them as they are with RPI.

Where DePaul enters the BE season rated does matter. Power ratings are transactional. If I beat you by more than expected, I take away some of your rating for myself. I increase my rating while yours decreasing. Whatever DePaul brings to conference play will be redistributed among any other conference members who beat them unless DePaull wins some games and takes from others.

That's why every game matters OOC, not just the high profile wins. They all add to a teams resume and they all translate numerically in the various formulas that are used.

RPI is a very poor measure of performance. It was a politically motivated concoction in the sense that it was derived to provide a measure that would discourage teams from running up scores just to get ratings. While the goal was lofty and noble, it resulted in an inferior measure. It persists only because it's been around for a long time now but it's outlived its usefulness. The committee is very much focused these days on getting the 68 best teams. To do so, they use the best measures, which include power ratings as well as RPI, and analysis of individual teams' records.

All we have to know about RPI is that people who bet on games would never use RPI to devise their picks. Not in a million years.

The RPI though is a really good indicator though of who gets bids. Last year, only 1 team that was eligible in the top 50 didn't make the tourney. Southern Miss. You can't say the same about Ken Pom where I think it was like 4 teams didn't make it that were top 50. When you hear someone say team x has 8 top 50 wins, they mean they have 8 top 50 RPI wins. Seems like you are on a crusade to eliminate the RPI(which you aren't the first). But, you have to acknowledge that it's still a very real part of the selection process.