VCU vs UVA

[XU85]

UD and VCU will be the next 2 in. It's really not close.

Saint Louis brings nothing to the table. Look at their attendance and the pro sports teams there. Dayton beats SLU in every possible category except the last 2 tournaments. There is no logical argument that would involve SLU over Dayton.

I still can't believe Xavier, Butler, and and Creighton were invited before UD.

[Bill Marsh]

I get the argument against the importance of institutional fit. Institutional fit is definitely an added bonus, but not that big of a deal (e.g., Louisville)

I also can see the argument that VCU was okay before Shaka Smart and will be after so long as the school continues to devote resources to the program (BTW, VCU did NOT sell out their arena pre-final four years. I don't have a link, but I looked this up when a VCU-enthusiast over on the Marquette board made the same claim). I don't really agree, but I can see where you're coming from and will cede the point for the sake of argument.

However, I don't get how the VCU admirers can simply say "you think VCU will add football?!? Ha! Please. They won't!" How do you know? How can you simply sweep that under the rug? I know the current VCU AD has said "no" to football, but what about when he's gone?

Consider:
*VCU has a "let's get a football team to VCU" student group
*Richmond is a decently-sized metro area with zero pro-sports teams
*ODU built a stadium from scratch and jumped to BCS (i.e., the mid-major schools have NOT learned the lesson that they will never be the SEC)
*VCU has 30,000+ alums who all primarily live in and around the Richmond MSA (i.e., there would be a solid fanbase already in place)
*VCU is public (easier to get cash, i.e., tax-dollars for a fball program and stadium)

If you're going to argue that VCU will never get football, I'd at least like to hear an actual argument rather than "Pfff, no they won't. That's foolish."

I wouldn't even bother arguing this point. What difference does it make? Anyone could potentially add football. We know as a matter of fact that Villanoa seriously considered the mover to FBS football on 2 separate occasions within the past 15 years. So, was it a mistake to include them.

Georgetown also has a football team. If it became impossible to compete at the highest levels without football, would they be a risk to upgrade and leave the conference? With Ivy League caliber academics and a location in DC to bring back the market lost when Maryland left, Georgetown could be very attractive to the ACC.

To rule out VCU based on a phantom football program would be nuts. And for VCU to add football after getting into the Big East so they could leave for a lower paying conference would be equally nuts. If UConn, Cincinnati, and USF were not able to get into an FBS conference, what chance would VCU have?

The fact is that any school could leave the conference at any time. Members have withdrawn from every conference except the Ivy League. It's not possible to eliminate any possibility of a school withdrawing. That's why they have withdrawal clauses.

[DumpsterFireA10]

UD and VCU will be the next 2 in. It's really not close.

Saint Louis brings nothing to the table. Look at their attendance and the pro sports teams there. Dayton beats SLU in every possible category except the last 2 tournaments. There is no logical argument that would involve SLU over Dayton.

I still can't believe Xavier, Butler, and and Creighton were invited before UD.

I guess since this UD fan has spoken, I can set my sights on the MVC then. It was fun while it lasted.

[Moliva]

UD and VCU will be the next 2 in. It's really not close.

Saint Louis brings nothing to the table. Look at their attendance and the pro sports teams there. Dayton beats SLU in every possible category except the last 2 tournaments. There is no logical argument that would involve SLU over Dayton.

I LOL'd. Nice work.

[stever20]

I haven't been as high on SLU as some others- but let's just say this- if Rick Majerus was still walking this earth and coaching SLU, SLU would be in the Big East right now. I think that uncertainty really hurt SLU considerably last year when the expansion process was taking place.

[ElDonBDon]

UD and VCU will be the next 2 in. It's really not close.

Saint Louis brings nothing to the table. Look at their attendance and the pro sports teams there. Dayton beats SLU in every possible category except the last 2 tournaments. There is no logical argument that would involve SLU over Dayton.

Are you really a Dayton fan or someone trolling with a Dayton handle just to make fun of them? I honestly don't know based on this comment.

*SLU had solid attendance when the team was actually good
*They have an NHL arena, which can easily be used for basketball if needed (e.g., tournament host, big nationally-televised games, etc.)
*STL MSA is far bigger than Dayton's
*STL brings a new geographical footprint for exposure, and more importantly, recruiting. Dayton, on the other hand, is within one hour of Xavier and thus helps zero on the geography/recruiting front.

I give credit to Dayton fans for being so passionate about their team, even when bad, but IMO if it's between SLU and Dayton, there's no contest.

[DumpsterFireA10]

UD and VCU will be the next 2 in. It's really not close.

Saint Louis brings nothing to the table. Look at their attendance and the pro sports teams there. Dayton beats SLU in every possible category except the last 2 tournaments. There is no logical argument that would involve SLU over Dayton.

Are you really a Dayton fan or someone trolling with a Dayton handle just to make fun of them? I honestly don't know based on this comment.

*SLU had solid attendance when the team was actually good
*They have an NHL arena, which can easily be used for basketball if needed (e.g., tournament host, big nationally-televised games, etc.)
*STL MSA is far bigger than Dayton's
*STL brings a new geographical footprint for exposure, and more importantly, recruiting. Dayton, on the other hand, is within one hour of Xavier and thus helps zero on the geography/recruiting front.

I give credit to Dayton fans for being so passionate about their team, even when bad, but IMO if it's between SLU and Dayton, there's no contest.

I guess we all want the same thing. Some people just ask for it in different ways.

[ElDonBDon]

I get the argument against the importance of institutional fit. Institutional fit is definitely an added bonus, but not that big of a deal (e.g., Louisville)

I also can see the argument that VCU was okay before Shaka Smart and will be after so long as the school continues to devote resources to the program (BTW, VCU did NOT sell out their arena pre-final four years. I don't have a link, but I looked this up when a VCU-enthusiast over on the Marquette board made the same claim). I don't really agree, but I can see where you're coming from and will cede the point for the sake of argument.

However, I don't get how the VCU admirers can simply say "you think VCU will add football?!? Ha! Please. They won't!" How do you know? How can you simply sweep that under the rug? I know the current VCU AD has said "no" to football, but what about when he's gone?

Consider:
*VCU has a "let's get a football team to VCU" student group
*Richmond is a decently-sized metro area with zero pro-sports teams
*ODU built a stadium from scratch and jumped to BCS (i.e., the mid-major schools have NOT learned the lesson that they will never be the SEC)
*VCU has 30,000+ alums who all primarily live in and around the Richmond MSA (i.e., there would be a solid fanbase already in place)
*VCU is public (easier to get cash, i.e., tax-dollars for a fball program and stadium)

If you're going to argue that VCU will never get football, I'd at least like to hear an actual argument rather than "Pfff, no they won't. That's foolish."

I wouldn't even bother arguing this point. What difference does it make? Anyone could potentially add football. We know as a matter of fact that Villanoa seriously considered the mover to FBS football on 2 separate occasions within the past 15 years. So, was it a mistake to include them.

Georgetown also has a football team. If it became impossible to compete at the highest levels without football, would they be a risk to upgrade and leave the conference? With Ivy League caliber academics and a location in DC to bring back the market lost when Maryland left, Georgetown could be very attractive to the ACC.

To rule out VCU based on a phantom football program would be nuts. And for VCU to add football after getting into the Big East so they could leave for a lower paying conference would be equally nuts. If UConn, Cincinnati, and USF were not able to get into an FBS conference, what chance would VCU have?

The fact is that any school could leave the conference at any time. Members have withdrawn from every conference except the Ivy League. It's not possible to eliminate any possibility of a school withdrawing. That's why they have withdrawal clauses.

Solid points, Bill. However, I still see a stark difference between Nova and Gtown's programs and VCU's phantom one. Nova didn't leave jump to FBS because it would have been too costly to do so if I remember correctly. Nova and Gtown's student body are both significantly smaller than VCU's and the student bodies are also less-inclined to stay in the same region as the school (this is especially true for Gtown). Nova would be absolutely foolish to jump to FBS. I live in Philly and anyone who watches college football only cares about Penn State. Even when Temple had respectable football a couple years ago, the attendance was pitiful and they play at the Link, which is on a subway line, close to the heart of the city, and right off I-95.

If VCU did join the BE and then started football and left, would that be the end of the world? Clearly not, but I'd prefer conference stability over conference instability, and football causes the latter, as we've all seen. However, to be honest, I would love to have UCONN back, even if it meant accepting their football and have them leave in five years. The cost of accepting UCONN's football is worth the benefit of getting a stellar basketball school, especially one with a huge alumni base in NYC. With VCU, the costs aren't worth the benefits, at least, not how I value them.

By now it seems crystal clear that the university presidents are running the show. And, from what I gather, the rumors seem to be that they are not too high on VCU (relative to, say, SLU, Richmond, and Dayton). Why do you (or anyone) think that is? Academics? Potential for football? Public/private and FOI concerns? This is a genuine question, I don't ask in a snarky way to back up my point or anything.

[Burrito]

It'll be interesting to see what Georgetown does with its football program. The Patriot League began awarding football scholarships with this year's freshman class. Georgetown was the only school not to award scholarships. If it remains in the conference, it will become a bottom feeder there.

[Lavinwood]

I don't get the hype with Dayton. I understand they have a shockingly big local fan base and everything, but Dayton is not even close to being a household name. Most Big East and general college hoops fans already knew of Creighton, Butler, and Xavier before they came here. Dayton has no identity. It would give us too much of a mid-major feel if we added them IMO. They don't have that brand name that most of the other teams here have. DePaul is probably the only school in the conference that isn't a brand name at all. Do we really want to add another in Dayton?