VCU vs UVA

[Bill Marsh]

It is interesting to me that supporters of VCU joining the conference seem to feel that they need to incessantly show why they belong. Meanwhile, although there is some merit-slinging, Richmond and SLU fans are quieter. Maybe there is a point to the fact that these two fan bases don’t seem like they need to validate their potential inclusion every time there is a possible avenue to do so.

I plead guilty to the charge since I started this thread. To make it clear, I am not a VCU fan. BUT I am a passionate fan of the Big East and want it to be the best conference it can be. The reason I posted is because the win over UVA was an opportunity to highlight a VCU success and to once again point to their repeated success in big time situations being the reason that they would enhance the conference.

The reason that it's necessary to keep the lobbying for VCU going is that every time expansion has been brought up by the conference, there is a faction that advocates with push back at any suggestion of VCU. These fans seem to express an extreme parochial view of the conference, suggesting that VCU isn't "a good fit." Instead of striving for excellence, they want to add "schools like us." That kind of thinking will kill this conference. If you're not moving forward. You're moving backwards.

The idea that Richmond is a better choice than VCU reflects this kind so parochial thinking. UR is a tiny school of 3,000 students. The Big East might as well consider Siena, which is at least positioned to dominate its market - something that UR will never be able to do. UR simply does not have the fan base to be an asset to the Big East. They will not draw ratings, they do not draw fans to their building, and they will not put fans in the seats at MSG at tournament time. All 3 of these factors are critical to the success of this conference.

The Big East experiment is extremely important to any fan of college basketball who doesn't want the sport to be dominated by the big football powers. VCU is quite simply the best basketball-first school this side of Gonzaga that is not already in the BE. It's not true that this program is simply a creation of Shaka SmRt, but even if it were, that's a pointless argument. Timing in life is everything. Right place/right time matters. The VCU program is positioned to soar to even greater heights. The Big East should want the blossoming of this program to occur under the Big East umbrella because the conference as a whole will benefit from it. If the BE eschews this opportunity someone else like the A10 or AAC will benefit from it - to the Big East's detriment. This is a competitive industry. Anyone who ignores opportunity does so at his own risk.

VCU is East. That's important to this league. VCU is big - 30,000 students big. That too is important because it means big ratings, big attendance numbers, and big time support for the conference at tournament time. VCU is ranked. That's important because no one else is except for Marquette and after yesterday's loss, that may be in jeopardy. Hard to be BIG East - as in big time - if you don't have anyone ranked with the big boys.

Let the arguments keep rolling about "poor fit", "Shaka's leaving," "they'll add football some day." They're all nonsense. This league has to compete. Picking non competitive programs will lead us down the road to being noncompetitive. This thread isn't about caring about VCU. It's focused on caring about the Big East. Anyone who cares about the Big East wants it to be the strongest league it possibly can be. That means adding VCU when the time comes.

[trephin]

any expansion has to consider more than men's basketball. any conference is more than just athletics. and any conference is more than just one sport. money obviously looms over everything but there are still 21 other sports and the student athletes in those sports that need to be considered. and as jaded as we can get over college sports, i do think college presidents think of the school as a whole. they want to associate with other schools and presidents that they feel share the same values whether that involves academic standards in general (and thus the athletic profile they recruit), the financial commitment to athletics or school in general. or any number of initiatives. just as it would be illogical to base an invitation solely on a school being private/public or religious/nonsectarian, it's just as illogical to base it solely on men's basketball performance. i'm sure all the usual factors like market, market size etc are still important factors.

also, i'm not advocating richmond, but is its enrollment so much different than say Butler or PC? from wikipedia...

Butler 4034 undergad + 633 post grad
PC 3852 + 735
UR 3400 + 961

[DumpsterFireA10]

It is interesting to me that supporters of VCU joining the conference seem to feel that they need to incessantly show why they belong. Meanwhile, although there is some merit-slinging, Richmond and SLU fans are quieter. Maybe there is a point to the fact that these two fan bases don’t seem like they need to validate their potential inclusion every time there is a possible avenue to do so.

I plead guilty to the charge since I started this thread. To make it clear, I am not a VCU fan. BUT I am a passionate fan of the Big East and want it to be the best conference it can be. The reason I posted is because the win over UVA was an opportunity to highlight a VCU success and to once again point to their repeated success in big time situations being the reason that they would enhance the conference.

The reason that it's necessary to keep the lobbying for VCU going is that every time expansion has been brought up by the conference, there is a faction that advocates with push back at any suggestion of VCU. These fans seem to express an extreme parochial view of the conference, suggesting that VCU isn't "a good fit." Instead of striving for excellence, they want to add "schools like us." That kind of thinking will kill this conference. If you're not moving forward. You're moving backwards.

The idea that Richmond is a better choice than VCU reflects this kind so parochial thinking. UR is a tiny school of 3,000 students. The Big East might as well consider Siena, which is at least positioned to dominate its market - something that UR will never be able to do. UR simply does not have the fan base to be an asset to the Big East. They will not draw ratings, they do not draw fans to their building, and they will not put fans in the seats at MSG at tournament time. All 3 of these factors are critical to the success of this conference.

The Big East experiment is extremely important to any fan of college basketball who doesn't want the sport to be dominated by the big football powers. VCU is quite simply the best basketball-first school this side of Gonzaga that is not already in the BE. It's not true that this program is simply a creation of Shaka SmRt, but even if it were, that's a pointless argument. Timing in life is everything. Right place/right time matters. The VCU program is positioned to soar to even greater heights. The Big East should want the blossoming of this program to occur under the Big East umbrella because the conference as a whole will benefit from it. If the BE eschews this opportunity someone else like the A10 or AAC will benefit from it - to the Big East's detriment. This is a competitive industry. Anyone who ignores opportunity does so at his own risk.

VCU is East. That's important to this league. VCU is big - 30,000 students big. That too is important because it means big ratings, big attendance numbers, and big time support for the conference at tournament time. VCU is ranked. That's important because no one else is except for Marquette and after yesterday's loss, that may be in jeopardy. Hard to be BIG East - as in big time - if you don't have anyone ranked with the big boys.

Let the arguments keep rolling about "poor fit", "Shaka's leaving," "they'll add football some day." They're all nonsense. This league has to compete. Picking non competitive programs will lead us down the road to being noncompetitive. This thread isn't about caring about VCU. It's focused on caring about the Big East. Anyone who cares about the Big East wants it to be the strongest league it possibly can be. That means adding VCU when the time comes.

I'm a SLU fan and don't disagree with your argument for VCU. They're clearly the best team out there to get, and I don't have an issue with it. It's nonzero, but the chances are pretty minute that this comes up because I don't think there's any way the Big East goes past 10.

[Noonzy]

I'd have to agree with Bill that VCU deserves some serious attention when and if expansion does happen. They have had continued success and are an east coast team, a very rabid fanbase with no desire to go into football big time. Then one would consider SLU to keep it a midwest/east coast league. Gonzaga seems like more of a travel nightmare for both the schools and fans. Of course UConn would have to be considered if they ever dropped FB, but that's not going to happen-plus I don't want them since they begged every conference for an invite.

[Bill Marsh]

any expansion has to consider more than men's basketball. any conference is more than just athletics. and any conference is more than just one sport. money obviously looms over everything but there are still 21 other sports and the student athletes in those sports that need to be considered. and as jaded as we can get over college sports, i do think college presidents think of the school as a whole. they want to associate with other schools and presidents that they feel share the same values whether that involves academic standards in general (and thus the athletic profile they recruit), the financial commitment to athletics or school in general. or any number of initiatives. just as it would be illogical to base an invitation solely on a school being private/public or religious/nonsectarian, it's just as illogical to base it solely on men's basketball performance. i'm sure all the usual factors like market, market size etc are still important factors.

also, i'm not advocating richmond, but is its enrollment so much different than say Butler or PC? from wikipedia...

Butler 4034 undergad + 633 post grad
PC 3852 + 735
UR 3400 + 961

Enrollment is a negative for both PC and Butler. Both had to overcome this disadvantage. I see nothing in Richmond's portfolio to overcome this deficiency. Richmond has an additional problem that doesn't exist for either PC or Butler. Richmond has cross town competition from VCU while the other two are the only game in town in their cities.

I agree with your comments about other factors. But basketball is still the #1 priority and the very reason why the conference exists. VCU is a reasonably selective school - more selective than some of the current BE members - with no scandals or other problems that make it incompatible with the rest of the conference. If there were a school that presented the same benefits as VCU that was a better fit, then sure, go for it, but there's no one else out there who's anywhere close to bringing what VCU does. Dave Gavitt, who gave this conference it's vision, had no problem bringing in UConn when it met the conference's needs despite the fact that the development of its program wasn't as far along as VCU's. No different today.

[Bulldog_Muskie]

any expansion has to consider more than men's basketball. any conference is more than just athletics. and any conference is more than just one sport. money obviously looms over everything but there are still 21 other sports and the student athletes in those sports that need to be considered. and as jaded as we can get over college sports, i do think college presidents think of the school as a whole. they want to associate with other schools and presidents that they feel share the same values whether that involves academic standards in general (and thus the athletic profile they recruit), the financial commitment to athletics or school in general. or any number of initiatives. just as it would be illogical to base an invitation solely on a school being private/public or religious/nonsectarian, it's just as illogical to base it solely on men's basketball performance. i'm sure all the usual factors like market, market size etc are still important factors.

also, i'm not advocating richmond, but is its enrollment so much different than say Butler or PC? from wikipedia...

Butler 4034 undergad + 633 post grad
PC 3852 + 735
UR 3400 + 961

Enrollment is a negative for both PC and Butler. Both had to overcome this disadvantage. I see nothing in Richmond's portfolio to overcome this deficiency. Richmond has an additional problem that doesn't exist for either PC or Butler. Richmond has cross town competition from VCU while the other two are the only game in town in their cities.

I'd also say that Butler has quite a few fair weather fans that help it overcome their small enrollment/alumni base. People in Indiana REALLY like basketball and I'd bet that quite a few of them will tune into Butler games and bump up the ratings more so than Richmond fans would. That's not a knock on UR but I think its something worth noting.

[ElDonBDon]

I get the argument against the importance of institutional fit. Institutional fit is definitely an added bonus, but not that big of a deal (e.g., Louisville)

I also can see the argument that VCU was okay before Shaka Smart and will be after so long as the school continues to devote resources to the program (BTW, VCU did NOT sell out their arena pre-final four years. I don't have a link, but I looked this up when a VCU-enthusiast over on the Marquette board made the same claim). I don't really agree, but I can see where you're coming from and will cede the point for the sake of argument.

However, I don't get how the VCU admirers can simply say "you think VCU will add football?!? Ha! Please. They won't!" How do you know? How can you simply sweep that under the rug? I know the current VCU AD has said "no" to football, but what about when he's gone?

Consider:
*VCU has a "let's get a football team to VCU" student group
*Richmond is a decently-sized metro area with zero pro-sports teams
*ODU built a stadium from scratch and jumped to BCS (i.e., the mid-major schools have NOT learned the lesson that they will never be the SEC)
*VCU has 30,000+ alums who all primarily live in and around the Richmond MSA (i.e., there would be a solid fanbase already in place)
*VCU is public (easier to get cash, i.e., tax-dollars for a fball program and stadium)

If you're going to argue that VCU will never get football, I'd at least like to hear an actual argument rather than "Pfff, no they won't. That's foolish."

[UDHoopstar]

UD and VCU will be the next 2 in. It's really not close.

Saint Louis brings nothing to the table. Look at their attendance and the pro sports teams there. Dayton beats SLU in every possible category except the last 2 tournaments. There is no logical argument that would involve SLU over Dayton.

[Bulldog_Muskie]

UD and VCU will be the next 2 in. It's really not close.

Saint Louis brings nothing to the table. Look at their attendance and the pro sports teams there. Dayton beats SLU in every possible category except the last 2 tournaments. There is no logical argument that would involve SLU over Dayton.

lol

[DumpsterFireA10]

I'll just politely agree to disagree.