Marquette VS Ohio State

[billyjack]

OT and not relevant to your point, but the 1977 tourney was the first that I followed the whole way through, so of course I remember as a 9-year old that Marquette beat Phil Ford and UNC in the final (i was allowed to stay up til the end when Al McGuire cried), after beating UNCC and Cedric Maxwell 2 days earlier (on a full court inbounds to Jerome Whitehead).

Also not relevant to your main point--> in 1985, many Big East fans didn't think the Villanova win over GU was really that big an upset. PJ Carlesimo has recently said the same thing. The BE was so competitive and the regular season games were so highly contested that the final wasn't too shocking. Plus the Wildcats had those 3 great seniors.

Anyway, just my two cents... I've forgotten what you guys were arguing about...?

[Chalmers0]

AFAIK, this is seen as pretty much of a pick 'me game. But I disagree with that characterization of the game.

I've said consistently that IMO Ohio State is possibly the most underrated team in the country. In comparing them to Marquette, there are superficial similarities since both teams are well coached. And both went to the Elite 8 last year. But looking a little deeper, there are major differences:

1. Ohio State has ever key player back for last year, including the top 6 players in their rotation. #7 is their only loss. In contrast, Marquette is replacing 3 starters.

You know, other than losing a 20 ppg player (~30% of their scoring last year) in Deshaun Thomas...

Ohio State also really lacks competent big men, Amir Williams is their lone decent post player I believe, and he really isn't any good. Gardner should absolutely have his way in this one.

[Bill Marsh]

AFAIK, this is seen as pretty much of a pick 'me game. But I disagree with that characterization of the game.

I've said consistently that IMO Ohio State is possibly the most underrated team in the country. In comparing them to Marquette, there are superficial similarities since both teams are well coached. And both went to the Elite 8 last year. But looking a little deeper, there are major differences:

1. Ohio State has ever key player back for last year, including the top 6 players in their rotation. #7 is their only loss. In contrast, Marquette is replacing 3 starters.

You know, other than losing a 20 ppg player (~30% of their scoring last year) in Deshaun Thomas...

Ohio State also really lacks competent big men, Amir Williams is their lone decent post player I believe, and he really isn't any good. Gardner should absolutely have his way in this one.

Sorry for overlooking Thomas. Thanks for the correction.

Williams split time down low with Ravenel. The 2 combined last year for 8 ppt, 8 rpg. Not great, but certainly competent. Williams got his 4 ppg, 4 rpg, 1.7 bpg in just 16 minutes. He led the team in blocks playing part time. He was a 4-star recruit when they brought him into the program 2 years ago and should be ready to step into a major role as a junior. To say that he isn't any good is simply not true. At 6-11, I doubt that Gardner will have his way with him. As the season progresses, we'll find out just how good he is. He'll be backed up by another 4-star recruit, freshman Marc Loving.

Even without Thomas, 4 returning starters back means that the nucleus of a team that went to back-to-back Elite 8's returns and they have replaced the missing pieces with a couple of 4-star recruits. They finished the season last year by going 11-1. I'm expecting that they'll pick up where they left off last year.

[aughnanure]

Nova and Marq are a wash at no2 Georgetown is definitelly number 1. But please make a legit argument for how Nova is above MU.

The question is not which program is better in November 2013, (although I do look forward to the two schools competing against each other this year) but rather which carries more national "cred" as one of the top BE schools. But you asked me to make my argument so here goes...

1. Name the BE school that has the most NCAA tourney wins?
2. Name the BE team that has the most NCAA tourney appearances?
3. Which team has played in the BE longer: Marq or Nova?
4. Which team has made a more recent FF: Marq or Nova?
5. Which team has won a more recent Nat Championship (and did so as a member of the BE in one of the most epic finals of all time)? Ask someone who Marq beat for their Nat Championship and maybe 2 out of 10 can remember. Ask the same question about Nova and people can tell you who they beat, the players involved and several details of the game. That adds to the national brand and ties Nova and Gtwn (and SJU since they werein the FF that year) to the BE forever.
6. Since Marq has joined the BE which team has the better head to head record?
7. Which team has made 2 FF's and 7 Elite 8's as a member of the Big East?

I guess that's a pretty good start. Marq has prob had more success the last 4 years or so but, as I said, 1 Elite 8 as a conference member does not vault Marq to the front of the line IMO. If we were ranking national cred as a BE member the argument could be made to put SJU up there too.

1. I can play this game too.
Who has the longer NCAA tournament streak?
Who has the most recent Big East conference championship?
Since Marq has joined the Big East, who has the better conference record?
Who has more players playing in the NBA?

2. So no one remembers who Marquette played in 1977...because you dont? It was North f---ing Carolina. I think people remember. Seriously, does everything that did NOT happen in the old big east not count to you old guard?

3 And why the hell do you get to put "qualifiers" like "played in the Big East longer" and "has more FF as member of Big East." That is just dumb. You better win those points.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Nova and Marq are a wash at no2 Georgetown is definitelly number 1. But please make a legit argument for how Nova is above MU.

The question is not which program is better in November 2013, (although I do look forward to the two schools competing against each other this year) but rather which carries more national "cred" as one of the top BE schools. But you asked me to make my argument so here goes...

1. Name the BE school that has the most NCAA tourney wins?
2. Name the BE team that has the most NCAA tourney appearances?
3. Which team has played in the BE longer: Marq or Nova?
4. Which team has made a more recent FF: Marq or Nova?
5. Which team has won a more recent Nat Championship (and did so as a member of the BE in one of the most epic finals of all time)? Ask someone who Marq beat for their Nat Championship and maybe 2 out of 10 can remember. Ask the same question about Nova and people can tell you who they beat, the players involved and several details of the game. That adds to the national brand and ties Nova and Gtwn (and SJU since they werein the FF that year) to the BE forever.
6. Since Marq has joined the BE which team has the better head to head record?
7. Which team has made 2 FF's and 7 Elite 8's as a member of the Big East?

I guess that's a pretty good start. Marq has prob had more success the last 4 years or so but, as I said, 1 Elite 8 as a conference member does not vault Marq to the front of the line IMO. If we were ranking national cred as a BE member the argument could be made to put SJU up there too.

1. I can play this game too.
Who has the longer NCAA tournament streak?
Who has the most recent Big East conference championship?
Since Marq has joined the Big East, who has the better conference record?
Who has more players playing in the NBA?

2. So no one remembers who Marquette played in 1977...because you dont? It was North f---ing Carolina. I think people remember. Seriously, does everything that did NOT happen in the old big east not count to you old guard?

3 And why the hell do you get to put "qualifiers" like "played in the Big East longer" and "has more FF as member of Big East." That is just dumb. You better win those points.

Maybe we are not singing off the same sheet music, Augh... I thought we were discussing which BIG EAST team had more national cred. It was framed within the context of someone saying that only Marq v Gtwn would garner any national attention on national TV as a conference matchup. I countered by saying that Villanova is the more accomplished BIG EAST team and IMO would be recognized as such by a national audience. Do you not agree that history in the league plays a part--especially when that history includes one of the most talked about finals in college hoops history that was between 2 BIG EAST schools. I'm sorry that you were not part of the league yet, but should that discount the fact that the most memorable tournament (with SJU also in the FF) in the history of this league that we share, should be discounted because Marq wasn't there yet. Should our history just start in 2005? So when I point to the fact that Nova has contributed 7 elite 8's and 2 FF's to the overall benefit of the BIG EAST and Marq has only contributed a Elite 8, that it's not fair because Marq was not in the league yet? Since Butler has been to 2 FF's most recently do you think they have more cred as a BIG EAST program than Marq? Of course not. They certainly have had much more recent success than Marq or Nova or Gtwn. And I think the same pattern follows with Marq as it relates to Villanova. Appreciate the recent success and hope for continued success but don't lose sight that this is a small sample size. Miami had more success than UNC last year but would a UNC-NC St. game garner more national cred than a Miami-NC St. game?

To your specific points let me counter:

- Since when did Marq win the BE Championship? I must have missed that one. Oh, you mean 1/3 of last year's REGULAR season title? Um...OK. Congrats on your 1/3 Regular Season BE Championship. BE tourney championships are what most people covet b/c there are no 1/3 BET champions.

- Since Marq joined the BE, both teams have made the tourney 8 times in 9 years. During that time Marq has won 9 tourney games and reached 1 elite 8, and Nova has won 12 and reached an E8 and a FF. All time Nova has more tourney wins and appearances. Are you really going to claim that Marq has a more impressive tourney resume even over the time we both have shared a conference?

- Already explained that, yes, to teams that are in the BE those memories of tourney success matter, and add to the overall lore of a program within your league. I still remember watching Billy Donovan get PC to the FF, and Andrew Gaze at SHU, and the Mullin, Walter Berry and Marc Jackson teams at SJU. I remember pulling for Gtwn vs. UNC and Houston. Those teams matter to me because we share a conference affiliation, and have battled each other with great respect for 30+ years. I was pullling hard for you guys to pull the upset on that 5th place, Fredo team, Syracuse, last year. Marq since 2005 has been my 2nd favorite team (like every other BE program) when playing anyone outside of the conference. You speak of "qualifiers" but should all of those BE memories be wiped away since Marq wasn't part of the party yet? Of course not.

In summary I think I have made a very compelling argument and I have welcomed your response. If you don't agree with it and think that a 4 year (only) snapshot is the right measure to use, then I guess you got me...

Lastly chill out Augh... it's Friday...the sun is shining...did you really need to throw out an F bomb to make your point?

[Chalmers0]

AFAIK, this is seen as pretty much of a pick 'me game. But I disagree with that characterization of the game.

I've said consistently that IMO Ohio State is possibly the most underrated team in the country. In comparing them to Marquette, there are superficial similarities since both teams are well coached. And both went to the Elite 8 last year. But looking a little deeper, there are major differences:

1. Ohio State has ever key player back for last year, including the top 6 players in their rotation. #7 is their only loss. In contrast, Marquette is replacing 3 starters.

You know, other than losing a 20 ppg player (~30% of their scoring last year) in Deshaun Thomas...

Ohio State also really lacks competent big men, Amir Williams is their lone decent post player I believe, and he really isn't any good. Gardner should absolutely have his way in this one.

Sorry for overlooking Thomas. Thanks for the correction.

Williams split time down low with Ravenel. The 2 combined last year for 8 ppt, 8 rpg. Not great, but certainly competent. Williams got his 4 ppg, 4 rpg, 1.7 bpg in just 16 minutes. He led the team in blocks playing part time. He was a 4-star recruit when they brought him into the program 2 years ago and should be ready to step into a major role as a junior. To say that he isn't any good is simply not true. At 6-11, I doubt that Gardner will have his way with him. As the season progresses, we'll find out just how good he is. He'll be backed up by another 4-star recruit, freshman Marc Loving.

Even without Thomas, 4 returning starters back means that the nucleus of a team that went to back-to-back Elite 8's returns and they have replaced the missing pieces with a couple of 4-star recruits. They finished the season last year by going 11-1. I'm expecting that they'll pick up where they left off last year.

Incompetent was too strong of a word, I admit. I just have seen a decent amount of Amir Williams and outside of being an OK shot blocker I haven't been impressed. His length COULD be a problem for Gardner but I think the biggest thing is that last year Amir averaged nearly 6 fouls committed per 40. That isn't good. Davante Gardner is a foul drawing machine. Last year he was 16th in the country and this year (in a small sample against poor competition) is 1st. As much as I don't think highly of Amir, if it comes down to a freshmen taking on Gardner then it becomes even more of an advantage for Marquette.

I do think Ohio State is a very good team, ESPECIALLY defensively on the perimeter. I just don't think this is as terrible of a match-up for Marquette as you are making it out to be.

[aughnanure]

The question is not which program is better in November 2013, (although I do look forward to the two schools competing against each other this year) but rather which carries more national "cred" as one of the top BE schools. But you asked me to make my argument so here goes...

1. Name the BE school that has the most NCAA tourney wins?
2. Name the BE team that has the most NCAA tourney appearances?
3. Which team has played in the BE longer: Marq or Nova?
4. Which team has made a more recent FF: Marq or Nova?
5. Which team has won a more recent Nat Championship (and did so as a member of the BE in one of the most epic finals of all time)? Ask someone who Marq beat for their Nat Championship and maybe 2 out of 10 can remember. Ask the same question about Nova and people can tell you who they beat, the players involved and several details of the game. That adds to the national brand and ties Nova and Gtwn (and SJU since they werein the FF that year) to the BE forever.
6. Since Marq has joined the BE which team has the better head to head record?
7. Which team has made 2 FF's and 7 Elite 8's as a member of the Big East?

I guess that's a pretty good start. Marq has prob had more success the last 4 years or so but, as I said, 1 Elite 8 as a conference member does not vault Marq to the front of the line IMO. If we were ranking national cred as a BE member the argument could be made to put SJU up there too.

1. I can play this game too.
Who has the longer NCAA tournament streak?
Who has the most recent Big East conference championship?
Since Marq has joined the Big East, who has the better conference record?
Who has more players playing in the NBA?

2. So no one remembers who Marquette played in 1977...because you dont? It was North f---ing Carolina. I think people remember. Seriously, does everything that did NOT happen in the old big east not count to you old guard?

3 And why the hell do you get to put "qualifiers" like "played in the Big East longer" and "has more FF as member of Big East." That is just dumb. You better win those points.

Maybe we are not singing off the same sheet music, Augh... I thought we were discussing which BIG EAST team had more national cred. It was framed within the context of someone saying that only Marq v Gtwn would garner any national attention on national TV as a conference matchup. I countered by saying that Villanova is the more accomplished BIG EAST team and IMO would be recognized as such by a national audience. Do you not agree that history in the league plays a part--especially when that history includes one of the most talked about finals in college hoops history that was between 2 BIG EAST schools. I'm sorry that you were not part of the league yet, but should that discount the fact that the most memorable tournament (with SJU also in the FF) in the history of this league that we share, should be discounted because Marq wasn't there yet. Should our history just start in 2005? So when I point to the fact that Nova has contributed 7 elite 8's and 2 FF's to the overall benefit of the BIG EAST and Marq has only contributed a Elite 8, that it's not fair because Marq was not in the league yet? Since Butler has been to 2 FF's most recently do you think they have more cred as a BIG EAST program than Marq? Of course not. They certainly have had much more recent success than Marq or Nova or Gtwn. And I think the same pattern follows with Marq as it relates to Villanova. Appreciate the recent success and hope for continued success but don't lose sight that this is a small sample size. Miami had more success than UNC last year but would a UNC-NC St. game garner more national cred than a Miami-NC St. game?

To your specific points let me counter:

- Since when did Marq win the BE Championship? I must have missed that one. Oh, you mean 1/3 of last year's REGULAR season title? Um...OK. Congrats on your 1/3 Regular Season BE Championship. BE tourney championships are what most people covet b/c there are no 1/3 BET champions.

- Since Marq joined the BE, both teams have made the tourney 8 times in 9 years. During that time Marq has won 9 tourney games and reached 1 elite 8, and Nova has won 12 and reached an E8 and a FF. All time Nova has more tourney wins and appearances. Are you really going to claim that Marq has a more impressive tourney resume even over the time we both have shared a conference?

- Already explained that, yes, to teams that are in the BE those memories of tourney success matter, and add to the overall lore of a program within your league. I still remember watching Billy Donovan get PC to the FF, and Andrew Gaze at SHU, and the Mullin, Walter Berry and Marc Jackson teams at SJU. I remember pulling for Gtwn vs. UNC and Houston. Those teams matter to me because we share a conference affiliation, and have battled each other with great respect for 30+ years. I was pullling hard for you guys to pull the upset on that 5th place, Fredo team, Syracuse, last year. Marq since 2005 has been my 2nd favorite team (like every other BE program) when playing anyone outside of the conference. You speak of "qualifiers" but should all of those BE memories be wiped away since Marq wasn't part of the party yet? Of course not.

In summary I think I have made a very compelling argument and I have welcomed your response. If you don't agree with it and think that a 4 year (only) snapshot is the right measure to use, then I guess you got me...

Lastly chill out Augh... it's Friday...the sun is shining...did you really need to throw out an F bomb to make your point?

First off, to be clear, Villanova absolutely has the national cred and I called the guy out who stupidly said it was only Marq and GU (seriously, Stever20 lives in a world where only the most recent things matters).

Secondly, Marquette has NOT MISSED THE TOURNEY since joining the Big East. So that is wrong, but no I was not claiming a better "resume," just a streak (since we were doing this individual points argument format earlier haha).

My problem is that you (and many fans like) cloud every conclusion with this "well we played in the Big East longer" type of subjective thinking and poetic waxing that can't be proven or negated. Who said all the memories are wiped away? But you literally just said "Villanova has been in the Big East longer." Are you supposed to get extra points for that? Is that really your argument for Nova having a better national brand? This was started because you claimed Nova is above MU and MUBoxer rightfully questioned that.

And yes we won the Big East (and have won more Big East games than any team the past 2 years). You can think winning 3 meaningless games before the NCAA tournament matters more than regular season accomplishments, but you'd be wrong in every way the NCAA tournament is decided. Seeds really do not change much. I get you guys love it and all, but the regular season matters more in college basketball. Don't expect us to have the same affinity for something we haven't been a part of for 30 years.

Lastly, I like F bombs, especially when you claim that no one remembers who Marquette beat to win the Nat'l Champ when it was only the 3rd all-time winningest program.

[aughnanure]

Maybe it's being in the Midwest/Big 10 Country but I would MUCH rather play Wisconsin then Arkansas from an exposure/recognition/RPI standpoint. It isn't even remotely close.

It's being in the Midwest/Big 10. Before 2000, Wisconsin had done nothing in college basketball. They were like an Iowa, or even Nebraska.

Arkansas has a very big brand name in the south and around Texas/Missouri/Kansas/Oklahoma. My larger point isn't about who has the program running better at this very moment but that if Arkansas can get going they will surpass Wisconsin in every way as a national brand. It's like saying Wisconsin is a bigger brand than Georgetown when they were going through a lull in the late 90s, early 2000s.

And lastly, just as supportive Big East fans, please don't buy into (or promote) the idea that Wiscy is some household name for basketball. Thanks!

[TheHall]

First off, to be clear, Villanova absolutely has the national cred and I called the guy out who stupidly said it was only Marq and GU (seriously, Stever20 lives in a world where only the most recent things matters).

Secondly, Marquette has NOT MISSED THE TOURNEY since joining the Big East. So that is wrong, but no I was not claiming a better "resume," just a streak (since we were doing this individual points argument format earlier haha).

My problem is that you (and many fans like) cloud every conclusion with this "well we played in the Big East longer" type of subjective thinking and poetic waxing that can't be proven or negated. Who said all the memories are wiped away? But you literally just said "Villanova has been in the Big East longer." Are you supposed to get extra points for that? Is that really your argument for Nova having a better national brand? This was started because you claimed Nova is above MU and MUBoxer rightfully questioned that.

And yes we won the Big East (and have won more Big East games than any team the past 2 years). You can think winning 3 meaningless games before the NCAA tournament matters more than regular season accomplishments, but you'd be wrong in every way the NCAA tournament is decided. Seeds really do not change much. I get you guys love it and all, but the regular season matters more in college basketball. Don't expect us to have the same affinity for something we haven't been a part of for 30 years.

Lastly, I like F bombs, especially when you claim that no one remembers who Marquette beat to win the Nat'l Champ when it was only the 3rd all-time winningest program.

Playing off-Broadway isn't the same as doing it on Broadway. If the last Marquette FF team had made that run from the BE Wade would have been as big a star as Melo in college. Imagine if he would have played to games against Melo in-conference that year. Wade likely would have been picked a few spots higher and Marq's brand would be even higher today. The platform you win on does matter and no program in this conference has played on a higher platform than the BE.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Sorry Augh... got my years and tourney years mixed up... Thought that the 2005 tourney was the first year that Marq was in the league (and they missed it that year) but actually they started in tourney year 2006. My bad.