Who Has Had the Best Program in the New Big East?

[Novachap]

I would say the best way to rank this is very simple: Trophies. Of which Nova's won 10 of a possible 15. The rest of us really need to pick it up.

Big East Trophy Rankings:

1. Villanova - 10
2. Seton Hall - 2
3. Creighton - 1
3. Xavier - 1
3. Providence -1
6. Butler - 0
6. Marquette - 0
6. St. John's - 0
6. Georgetown - 0
6. DePaul - 0
N/A. UConn

I know, rather I guess that we really don’t like to use the term “flag ship“ around here, but if ever there was an argument for naming Villanova the flag ship, this chart seals it. Not to mention the NC‘s.

Dash, I agree, not a fan of the "flagship" concept... diminishes the others so leaders can pump out their chest.. but, seeing it like this, wow....

[MUBoxer]

If the conversation is purely All time program then it's

Nova
UCONN
GTown
MU

Then order the rest how you all want.

If it's recent history to about the age of recruits then

Nova
UCONN
GTown
MU
Butler

Then order the rest how you want.

If it's since the big East was formed it's

Nova
Seton Hall
Xavier
Creighton
Providence

Order the rest how you want.

Bottom line is comparing programs is usually subjective because people weigh different periods of time differently. To me, I wasn't in college long ago and Marquette is still coming off an 10/12 tournaments including a Final four, elite 8 and two sweet sixteens. But to an 18yr old, Was Matthews, jimmy butler and Jae crowder are all aging NBA veterans, Wade has always been on his way out and Marquette has just been a bubble team, usually on the wrong side since the NBE. So again it's subjective.

[Xudash]

If the conversation is purely All time program then it's

Nova
UCONN
GTown
MU

Then order the rest how you all want.

If it's recent history to about the age of recruits then

Nova
UCONN
GTown
MU
Butler

Then order the rest how you want.

If it's since the big East was formed it's

Nova
Seton Hall
Xavier
Creighton
Providence

Order the rest how you want.

Bottom line is comparing programs is usually subjective because people weigh different periods of time differently. To me, I wasn't in college long ago and Marquette is still coming off an 10/12 tournaments including a Final four, elite 8 and two sweet sixteens. But to an 18yr old, Was Matthews, jimmy butler and Jae crowder are all aging NBA veterans, Wade has always been on his way out and Marquette has just been a bubble team, usually on the wrong side since the NBE. So again it's subjective.

Well, I certainly agree with you about it being subjective.

Marquette has been to the NCAAT 12 times since 2000, assuming 2000 provides sufficient "recency". 1 F4 and 3 S16's.

Xavier, in the same time period, put up 3 E8's and 4 additional S16's in that same period, making it to the NCAAT 16 times. Yes, it's all subjective, but I would say your "recent history" list is missing Xavier, even if you think a F4 is a requirement for that list, which it shouldn't be.

16 trips since the turn of the century with 7 of them making it to at least the round of 16 probably is memorable to most college basketball fans. Not to mention a very recent Number One Seed, which I guess I just mentioned.

[Hall2012]

Based on the title of the thread, I just figured it was safe to assume the intended time frame of discussion was since the "New Big East" was formed.

[MUBoxer]

If the conversation is purely All time program then it's

Nova
UCONN
GTown
MU

Then order the rest how you all want.

If it's recent history to about the age of recruits then

Nova
UCONN
GTown
MU
Butler

Then order the rest how you want.

If it's since the big East was formed it's

Nova
Seton Hall
Xavier
Creighton
Providence

Order the rest how you want.

Bottom line is comparing programs is usually subjective because people weigh different periods of time differently. To me, I wasn't in college long ago and Marquette is still coming off an 10/12 tournaments including a Final four, elite 8 and two sweet sixteens. But to an 18yr old, Was Matthews, jimmy butler and Jae crowder are all aging NBA veterans, Wade has always been on his way out and Marquette has just been a bubble team, usually on the wrong side since the NBE. So again it's subjective.

Well, I certainly agree with you about it being subjective.

Marquette has been to the NCAAT 12 times since 2000, assuming 2000 provides sufficient "recency". 1 F4 and 3 S16's.

Xavier, in the same time period, put up 3 E8's and 4 additional S16's in that same period, making it to the NCAAT 16 times. Yes, it's all subjective, but I would say your "recent history" list is missing Xavier, even if you think a F4 is a requirement for that list, which it shouldn't be.

16 trips since the turn of the century with 7 of them making it to at least the round of 16 probably is memorable to most college basketball fans. Not to mention a very recent Number One Seed, which I guess I just mentioned.

1. I was using 18 years so going from 2002 but that number still holds for us. Though why do you get to include your elite 8s but counted 2013 as a sweet 16 for us? It was an elite 8.

2. Xavier was my clear next in line but to make sure there was a definitive line I broke it at Final four. Saying it shouldn't be a requirement is the opinion of a fan of a great program that's never been there. People rush the streets, riot, go insane etc. nobody does that for a Sweet 16 or elite 8. Not to mention you get a trophy for the Final Four, you won your region. There's nothing like that for a S16 or E8, nobody remembers 1 seeds outside of Virginia (Lol) Go to sporcle and start filling in Sweet 16 brackets over the past 18 years, you'll find it's a lot of guessing. If you then take off the Xavier glasses you'll realize that nobody remembers who was in the sweet 16 except for the fans and the fans of the team you beat to get there. I have major respect for what Xavier's done but you guys talking about the impact of a Final Four is like talking about having sex when you've never had it.

3. It was a weaker conference. Even when we were in CUSA. And yes I know St Joseph's had that unreal couple years, and temple was still legit, etc but all the same. 16 trips playing 3-4 good teams impresses me about as much as Gonzaga's run, Major respect for it, impressive consistency, but more than a few of those years I question how they would've looked in a major conference. Hence a clear next in line, but no FF means you can bicker about it with the other programs though I'd certainly put you next there. (Maybe even above butler)

[Xudash]

1. I was using 18 years so going from 2002 but that number still holds for us. Though why do you get to include your elite 8s but counted 2013 as a sweet 16 for us? It was an elite 8.

2. Xavier was my clear next in line but to make sure there was a definitive line I broke it at Final four. Saying it shouldn't be a requirement is the opinion of a fan of a great program that's never been there. People rush the streets, riot, go insane etc. nobody does that for a Sweet 16 or elite 8. Not to mention you get a trophy for the Final Four, you won your region. There's nothing like that for a S16 or E8, nobody remembers 1 seeds outside of Virginia (Lol) Go to sporcle and start filling in Sweet 16 brackets over the past 18 years, you'll find it's a lot of guessing. If you then take off the Xavier glasses you'll realize that nobody remembers who was in the sweet 16 except for the fans and the fans of the team you beat to get there. I have major respect for what Xavier's done but you guys talking about the impact of a Final Four is like talking about having sex when you've never had it.

3. It was a weaker conference. Even when we were in CUSA. And yes I know St Joseph's had that unreal couple years, and temple was still legit, etc but all the same. 16 trips playing 3-4 good teams impresses me about as much as Gonzaga's run, Major respect for it, impressive consistency, but more than a few of those years I question how they would've looked in a major conference. Hence a clear next in line, but no FF means you can bicker about it with the other programs though I'd certainly put you next there. (Maybe even above butler)

Sorry for missing your 2013 E8 - it was a simple mistake: 1 F4 and 1 E8 and 2 S16's in 12 trips during that period.

Like I wrote, it's all subjective, just as you noted. You look at it your way, and I'll see it the way I see it. If you are asking me to believe that most fans remember F4 participants going back 20 years, I'll have to disagree with you. Most fans probably vaguely remember that a particular program won the tournament at some point, but would not necessarily know in which year they won it, unless it was a truly famous win like NC State's or Nova's over Georgetown. Going back to the beginning of the Century is a nice rounded-off thing to do, but it is going back 20 years (18 years not much different than that). College students of today were either not born yet or were still in diapers.

And that brings us back to the subjectivity thing.

Imagine what it looks like from 2010 to today. Marquette: 6 total trips with 1 E8 and 2 S16's. Xavier: 8 total trips with 1 E8 and 3 S16's. That brings us back to the subjectivity thing, again.

I won't argue the importance of F4's in making an argument about the perceived strength of a particular program, but 2003 is a long way back.

I do remember cheering my head off for Marquette when it won the NC with Al at the helm in 1977 in a downtown bar in Cincinnati.

At any rate, the answer to the specific question raised remains and will not change from Villanova.

[MUBoxer]

Just to put it to the test about people remembering final fours I decided to try to name as many as I can in the past 20yrs. Can't remember a specific count for a lot of these but pretty sure this is enough teams that I have made my point. About Final Fours. Sure I'm missing a few but I'm confident a casual CBB fan could get about this many maybe more

Marquette
Georgetown
Butler 2x
Villanova 3x
Gonzaga
Wichita State
George Mason
VCU
Loyola (Chi)
Illinois
Memphis
Michigan St
Ohio St
Maryland
Wisconsin 3x
Louisville
UConn
Syracuse
Duke
UNC
Kansas
Virginia
Oklahoma
Texas
Kentucky
Oregon
UCLA
Florida 3x
South Carolina
Indiana
Michigan



You are right about since 2010 though, of course idk about you but I hope we aren't recruiting 10yr olds, hence the 18yr benchmark I was using. At the end of the day it sounds like we just disagree about Final Fours, and I believe very strongly that when (because let's be honest it just a matter of time) Xavier hangs that first Final Four banner you'll know the difference in the feeling. Hell I was 11 and saw my best friends dad and his old MU roommates in tears over it for us.

[Xudash]

I hear you.

Like I said, I love the night Marquette won under Al Maguire. He was such a likable personality anyway.

It was one of those “feel good “moments for a fellow Jesuit school.