Best Basketball Program in Each State?

[Xudash]

Poor Muddled. I have him on block, but I presume his most recent post ran at least six inches in screen length and cited multiple sources to back up his stupidity.

He brought back a memory of a Looney Tunes cartoon: Spike and Chester. VD and Muddy = Chester.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVNHcob3oJg

[Fieldhouse Flyer]

If a poster arbitrarily injects an unspecified and limited time-period into the discussion, that is "cherry picking".

So you're saying MUBoxer was correct you were "cherry picking" (as you're wont to do) in your previous post in this thread, which has since been deleted(?), when you listed each Ohio school's record from last season as part of your "argument." Got it.

thunderbird – you obviously haven’t "got it".

Your reply is not as coherent as you likely intended, but I’ll explain what should have been obvious to you (and MUBoxer) in the first instance.

If you look at the following Wikipedia webpage, you will see that it shows the won-loss records of the 50 listed teams – beginning with the 1895 season (or with the first season which the specified team played their first game), and ending with the 2018-19 season. In previous years, this particular Wikipedia webpage was updated after each season was completed. This year, it has not yet been updated to include the won-loss records from the now-completed 2019-20 season, ergo, for the sake of completeness, I provided the won-loss records for the 2019-20 season. I trust that is not too difficult to understand.

Top 50 List of Teams with the Most Victories in NCAA Division I Men's College Basketball – Wikipedia – Games through the 2018-19 Season

12. Cincinnati • 1,816-1,015 (.641) • [118 seasons from 1902 through 2018-19]
28. Ohio State • 1,691-1,083 (.610) • [121 seasons from 1899 through 2018-19]
42. Dayton • 1,645-1,118 (.595) • [116 seasons from 1904 through 2018-19]

2020 FINAL NCAA MEN'S BASKETBALL NET RANKINGS – NCAA.com – March 12, 2020

Final Won-Loss Records for the 2019-20 Season

Cincinnati • 20-10 (.667)
Ohio State • 21-10 (.677)
Dayton • 29-2 (.935)
Xavier • 19-13 (.594)

Next, I will add the won-loss records for the two data sets above to obtain the totals through the 2019-20 season:

Won-Loss Records - Games through the 2019-20 Season

??. Cincinnati • 1,836-1,025 (.642) • [119 seasons from 1902 through 2019-20]
??. Ohio State • 1,712-1,093 (.610) • [122 seasons from 1899 through 2019-20]
??. Dayton • 1,674-1,120 (.599) • [117 seasons from 1904 through 2019-20]

I do not know what the updated rankings of the Top 50 teams are, because I have no interest in carrying out similar calculations for each of the Top 42 teams listed in Wikipedia’s 2018-19 rankings.

But I do know that Dayton has not moved down on the list, due to the Flyers’ 29-2 record last season. It is likely that the rankings of Cincinnati and Ohio State remained approximately the same as last season. I trust that the calculations above were not too difficult for you and MUBoxer to follow.

And finally, the information I have provided above is not "cherry picking" nor an "argument."

Wikipedia’s Top 50 List of Teams with the Most Victories in NCAA Division I Men's College Basketball is exactly what it purports to be.

[MUBoxer]

Again, i want to stress how freakin horrible Wisconsin was through 1999. They were a niblet ahead of Northwestern. They contributed nothing the sport, except maybe Michael Finley was a Badger.

Also, people can't cite Ohio State's or Cincinnati's success in 1962, but then dismiss for example St John's 50 year run of postseason berths.

Also, stepping back... great programs should contribute beyond the W-L records and NCAA runs. They need NBA picks and contributors, or great coaches and personalities, or great arenas, or something significant like that.

Comparing Wisconsin to Marquette... for me, in my 50's, sitting here 1200 miles away... Marquette has contributed exponentially more to college hoops than Wisconsin.... including coaches, players, history, NBA guys, bad-asses... to me it's not even close. The last thing i want to watch is a bunch of Ivan Lendl or Pete Sampras types dominating the sport-- gimme Jimmy Connors, McEnroe, Martina, Serena, and Borg, you know? Wisconsin is the freakin Ivan Lendl of college hoops.

Not to Nitpick but WI's momentum started in 94 I mean the 5 seasons prior to 98-99 they'd gone to 2/5 NCAAs and an NIT (with a respectable record unlike 93). Now yes our championship is legit as opposed to their segregated, during WW2 championship. But it doesn't change the fact that it's been close to a 30yr run now where WI has been above any team that did not win a national championship during that stretch. Now in terms of NBA history, cultural impact on college hoops, not punching players in the balls/flopping, and generally having an entertaining product it's MU all the way. I don't believe it is as far a gap as you might believe. And certainly not as big a gap as it was prior to the Dekker/Kaminsky teams.

[jbarajas0490]

I grew up in Milwaukee lived there for 20 +years... Wisconsin completely dominates in every form of media, even if Marquette is located near the heart of downtown. In high school everyone would be obsessed with getting into Madison. In terms of basketball programs Wisconsin and Marquette have been in a deadlock all my life with a slight edge to the Badgers. However the Badgers fan base completely blows Marquette out of the water, the Badgers are loved throughout the state while Marquette is an afterthought. Unfortunately Wojo has continued to take the team into mediocrity. Sorry but I give the edge to Madison.

[thunderbird]

muddled brain - first, let's clear up the definition of "cherry picking" : to select the best or most desirable (for VD).

Right off the bat, the "information" you decided to provide in your first post, which you've since deleted, was most victories instead of, say, winning %. It's very telling when you chose a data point where one has a significant advantage (16 years) over another. To put that in perspective, VD had 126 total wins over that period. And you don't provide X's record, which you easily could've but don't because they don't appear in the top 50 of most victories, whereas your omittance lends to your narrative that VD is a better program.

In that post, you also listed the 2019-20 season records separately, but without expounding into totals through the 2019-2020 season. If you were truly worried about "the sake of completeness" you would've "add[ed] the won-loss records for the two data sets" in the first post, but you didn't. So either the data set was "arbitrarily" : (based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something) provided or you implicitly wanted to highlight an outlier season for VD.

So let me reiterate. The "information" you provided was absolutely "cherry picked."

[Fieldhouse Flyer]

thunderbird - as you have taken great umbrage to my reference to the Wikipedia article, I withdraw it. Problem solved. We now have the opportunity to revisit the topic without considering it.
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1. The initial Assertion:

https://thebrokenanchor.com/who-has-the ... ery-state/

Xavier has the best program in the state of Ohio.

By my count, there are 6 Big East Teams who own a state: Xavier, ...

This are fine examples of ipse dixit.
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2. All-Time Factual Information:

2019-20 Men’s Basketball Media Guide – Xavier University - November 18, 2019

Page 114: All-Time Records vs. All Opponents

Xavier vs. Ohio State • 1-3 (.250)
Xavier vs. Cincinnati • 35-51 (.407)
Xavier vs. Dayton • 76-85 (.472)

Making a Final Four is absolutely huuuuuuge compared to making an Elite-8. It completely puts your program on another level. Like, you'll live in a different universe. Especially if you have more than one. National Championships are an even greater jump obviously.

National Champions, Runners-ups, and Final Fours

Ohio State Buckeyes men's basketball - Wikipedia

1960 • National Champions
1961 • National Championship Runner-up
1962 • National Championship Runner-up
1968 • Final Four
2007 • National Championship Runner-up
2012 • Final Four

Cincinnati Bearcats men's basketball - Wikipedia

1959 • Final Four
1960 • Final Four
1961 • National Champions
1962 • National Champions
1963 • National Championship Runner-up
1992 • Final Four

Dayton Flyers men's basketball - Wikipedia

1950–51 • National Championship Runner-up*
1951–52 • National Championship Runner-up*
1966–67 • National Championship Runner-up

* From 1938 through 1954, the NIT crowned college basketball’s nation champions.

The Xavier Musketeers have never played in a Final Four game.

Note that Dayton, Cincinnati, and Ohio State had much better basketball programs than Xavier in the 1950s and 1960s.

ESPN College Basketball Encyclopedia: The Complete History of the Men’s Game – ESPN - October 5, 2009

The ESPN/Sagarin Top 40 Teams of Each Decade

The 1950s
… 7. Dayton
… 10. Cincinnati
… 25. Ohio State
… 34. Xavier

The 1960s
… 2. Cincinnati
… 4. Ohio State
… 7. Dayton
…… Xavier is not listed in the Top 40 for the 1960s.

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3. My Conclusions, Based on the All-Time Factual Information Listed Above:

If the specified time-period was "the last 20 years" the Ohio Rankings would be:

1. Ohio State
2. Xavier
3. Cincinnati
4. Dayton

If the specified time-period was "the last 50 years" the Ohio Rankings would be:

1. Ohio State
2. Cincinnati
3. Xavier
4. Dayton

The Broken Anchor article and bigeastbiggerstage’s Post #1 both referred to "All-Time" rankings, which has a very specific meaning.

With that in mind, the All-Time Best Basketball Program in Ohio rankings are clearly:

1. Ohio State
2. Cincinnati
3. Dayton
4. Xavier
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thunderbird – your rant didn't really change anything.

[gmoser1210]

I like to consider the best program throughout the lives of current recruits, so since 2002 for this year.

Connecticut: UConn
Illinois: Illinois
Indiana: Butler
Nebraska: Creighton
New Jersey: Seton Hall
New York: Syracuse
Ohio: Ohio State
Pennsylvania: Villanova
Rhode Island: Providence
Wisconsin: Wisconsin

In the State of Indiana, Purdue had 12 tournament appearances, Butler and Notre Dame had 11, and Indiana had 9. Butler and Purdue had 5 sweet sixteens, Indiana had four, and Notre Dame had three. Butler, Notre Dame, and Purdue all had two elite eight appearances and Indiana had one. Butler had two final fours and Indiana had one. Butler had two runner-up finishes and Indiana had one.

In the State of Ohio, Dayton and Cincinnati only had one sweet sixteen appearance each, with Dayton also appearing once in the elite eight. Both would be contenders in other states, like Nebraska, but not in Ohio where Ohio State and Xavier both claim three elite eight appearances. Ohio State had two final four appearances with one runner-up finish. Xavier has never been to the final four, unlike every other Big East program except Creighton, but the Musketeers did appear in the sweet sixteen two more times than the Buckeyes, and they competed in the tournament three more times. Ohio State gets the edge over Xavier because of the final four appearances and the championship game, as well as two #1 seeds and three #2 seeds (to Xavier's one and one, respectively).

In the State of Wisconsin, Wisconsin had two final fours to Marquette's one (and Wisconsin once made it to the championship game), Wisconsin had three elite eights to Marquette's two, and Wisconsin had nine sweet sixteens to Marquette's four.

[GumbyDamnit!]

With all due respect to Butler, I would probably have them 4th in the state of Indiana behind IU, Purdue and ND. Just one man’s opinion. It’s subjective. We all place higher value on different things.

[gmoser1210]

With all due respect to Butler, I would probably have them 4th in the state of Indiana behind IU, Purdue and ND. Just one man’s opinion. It’s subjective. We all place higher value on different things.

Ten years ago I would have agreed with you. For 17-18 year olds, though, they've seen Butler in the spotlight just as much, if not more than those three programs when it comes to men's college basketball. They weren't even alive the last time the Big 10 won a national championship, and their parents were probably pretty little the last time IU won the national championship. Neither Purdue nor Notre Dame has been in a final four since 1980. Purdue hasn't beaten a #1 ranked team in their lifetime, something Butler has done three times in the last ten years.

[Edrick]

With all due respect to Butler, I would probably have them 4th in the state of Indiana behind IU, Purdue and ND. Just one man’s opinion. It’s subjective. We all place higher value on different things.

There's no one in the state of Indiana that would have Butler lower than two. They might put Butler behind whomever they follow, but regardless. It has clearly been the best program in Indiana for a generation no one really argues that. Salty? Yes. But no one argues it

As an aside they created the Crossroads Classic because of this discussion - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_Classic

Since Purdue and Notre Dame basically don't win games, though, I don't know how long it will be extended after this -- https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/c ... 958594001/