Revisionist History - What if Big East had added more teams

[Xudash]

So, again as I did back in July I come in peace . Congrats on a great year by the Big East sorry for all of us what has happen. So I told you back then that Dayton would be very good and as you all saw we had the best player in the country , the team was terrific , had a GameDay and received and will continue to receive huge National attention thru the NBA draft. We will be even with OBi leaving very very good again next year. Our coach will be National coach of the year and we sold out every game. Not a one hit wonder, it was out 5th NCAA appearance in 7 years . Far more than many of the BIg East members. ESPN is on our bandwagon, we are returning to Maui in 4 years and back to Atlantis in 2 years. No one....no one other than Kentucky travels like we do. We are very profitable and now a National brand. Economics will make us the next fit for this great conference. TV lost there ass this March and are already pushing the NCAA for makeup money and more games to televise going forward. Next summer we will celebrate together 1

National brand! Huge national attention!

I am a Xavier fan, which means I am biased here, but I will attempt to be direct and objective.

Dayton is not a national brand. Dayton marched through a very mediocre conference and piled up a unique winning percentage primarily as a result of one key player - who will be gone. You marched through that shitty conference with very poor television exposure. Winning games in the A10 and winning games in that conference on back water TV channels does not create a national brand. You should consider that probably half the BE conference members would have matched your record had they played your schedule; over half would’ve run through the A10.

Obi is a great player and probably a great kid, but he is one of a number of players that will eventually make it into the league. No one will be producing TV specials about him. I don’t think “huge“ will be forthcoming when it comes to the attention he brings to Dayton; the attention he will garner will be mostly about him.

You don’t seem to understand how well positioned the BE Conference is at this time, especially now with UCONN joining us. It will be even harder now to gain an invitation to become a member of the BE.

UD, as a mid-major in a weak conference, doesn’t make the grade, especially now.

Finally, think what you will about Xavier‘s ability to block UD’s entrance, but you may want to come around to the reality that it firmly exists. And it is more than just about basketball as far as Xavier is concerned. As we stated earlier: the conference does not need another team in Ohio, Villanova wants Philadelphia to itself, etc.

[Fieldhouse Flyer]

So, again as I did back in July I come in peace. Congrats on a great year by the Big East …

Good post Cheech. Unfortunately, xudash is unable to accept that things change over time, and that is certainly the crux of the present discussion.

On Saturday, I elaborated on your most of your points in my March 21, 2020 Update on The Dayton Thread...

1. Prologue
2. Preseason Expectations
3. Wow, What a Ride!
4. Selection Sunday – March 15, 2020
5. Dayton Flyers: 1967 and 2020
6. Obi Toppin
7. Coach Anthony Grant
8. Why were the Dayton Flyers so good this season?
9. Attendance 2019-20
10. Epilogue
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a Xavier fan, which means I am biased here, but I will attempt to be direct and objective.

Epic fail.

Dayton is not a national brand.

Wrong. See Chapter 3: "Wow, What a Ride!"

Dayton marched through a very mediocre conference and piled up a unique winning percentage primarily as a result of one key player - who will be gone.

Wrong again. See Chapter 8: "Why were the Dayton Flyers so good this season?"

You marched through that shitty conference with very poor television exposure. Winning games in the A10 and winning games in that conference on back water TV channels does not create a national brand.

Wrong yet again. The Dayton Flyers have separate TV Rights contracts with ESPN, CBS, and NBS, who aired most of the Flyers’ games on their networks. The 2019-20 edition of the Dayton Flyers were probably the most the talked-about basketball team in the country this season, but the good folks who only wat Fox Sports TV wouldn’t know anything about that.

You should consider that probably half the BE conference members would have matched your record had they played your schedule

Wrong for the fourth time. I gotta call "bullsh--" on this one.

It is more than just about basketball as far as Xavier is concerned.

I finally agree with something you posted. It’s also about institutional fit and academic reputation.

2017 RANKINGS - THE BEST 168 CATHOLIC COLLEGES IN AMERICA - Niche Best Catholic Colleges

2. Georgetown University
6. Villanova University
8. Marquette University
9. University of Dayton
10. Providence College
12. Creighton University
17. DePaul University
29. Xavier University

40. Seton Hall University
49. St. John's University

2020 RANKINGS - THE BEST 164 CATHOLIC COLLEGES IN AMERICA - Niche Best Catholic Colleges

2. Georgetown University (National Ranking: #24 of 1,626) ==> No change.
4. Villanova University (National Ranking: #81 of 1,626) ==> Up 2 places.
10. University of Dayton (National Ranking: #150 of 1,626) ==> Down 1 place.
12. Creighton University (National Ranking: #180 of 1,626) ==> No change.
17. Marquette University (National Ranking: #206 of 1,626) ==> Down 9 places.
21. Providence College (National Ranking: #235 of 1,626) ==> Down 11 places.
22. DePaul University (National Ranking: #238 of 1,626) ==> Down 5 places.
28. Seton Hall University (National Ranking: #280 of 1,626) ==> Up 12 places.

45. Xavier University (National Ranking: #392 of 1,626) ==> Down 16 places.
77. St. John's University (National Ranking: #639 of 1,626) ==> Down 28 places.

UD, as a mid-major in a weak conference, doesn’t make the grade, especially now.

I know that you didn’t go to one of the Big East’s better schools, but surely even you should be able to distinguish between a mid-major team and a mid-major conference. Here’s two hints:

How Much Is Your College-Basketball Team Worth? - Andrew Beaton, The Wall Street Journal - April 8, 2019

RANK SCHOOL ... VALUATION ... 1-YR VALUE CHANGE

18. University of Dayton .... $100,010,000 ... 18.40%
26. Marquette University ..... $72,400,000 .... 4.50%
28. Villanova University ....... $71,080,000 ... 64.90%
38. Xavier University .......... $61,870,000 ..... 3.30%
50. Georgetown University ... $50,270,000 ... -13.90%

ATTENDANCE 2019-20

17,314 • Creighton
15,145 • Marquette
13,363 • Dayton
11,299 • Villanova
10,328 • Seton Hall
10,311 • Xavier
10,064 • Providence

9,199 • UConn
8,617 • Butler
7,931 • Georgetown
6,236 • St. John's
5,187 • DePaul

Finally, please see Chapter 10 "Epilogue" in my March 21, 2020 update. You might learn something. I’m done with this thread and topic.

[paulxu]

I’m done with this thread and topic.

Muddy, I sincerely hope so.
This is another 6 page thread devoted to the fantasy of adding Dayton.
Why would the BE do that?
12 team AAC and 14 team A10 were scheduled for 2 teams in the tournament with unbalanced schedules.
The BE with a round robin was scheduled for 6 or 7.
Why change to an unbalanced schedule?

Your energies might be better spent on the AAC board, in case they add a BB only school to replace UConn.

[kayako]

This double round-robin worship is out of control. If we do stick with 20 games with 12 teams, that's only 2 teams that you'll only see once before the BET. I doubt many Nova fans will kick and scream about seeing a pair of teams only once, whether it's Providence & Seton Hall or DePaul & Xavier.

Now, I don't agree that Dayton's suddenly a powerhouse program. I mean, they haven't even separated themselves from VCU imo. It'll take more consistency than what they've shown so far. They made a good step in the right direction.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Back to the original topic in this thread - the C7 chose incredibly wisely in not only inviting just three new members, but also hit a home run with who those three members were. Firstly, by inviting only three members, it allowed the league to have a round-robin set-up for the first several years of existence. While some are very pro-RR or anti-RR, no one can really argue the benefits to Butler, Creighton and Xavier into the Big East as a result of the set-up; it allowed them to build rivalries and become fully assimilated into the league's membership quicker and faster than other additions to other major conferences. In addition, BU, CU, and XU each heavily invested in their programs before joining, as soon as they joined and after they joined to be as competitive as possible as a member of the league. Now, seven years later, each program is truly a BE program, and have each added value and expanded our reputation and perception with college basketball nationwide.

Conversely, if the C7 expanded to 12 immediately (five new members), I have little doubt the following would have happened: the perception would be that the Big East is just a top-heavy A10, sprinkled with the Catholic schools from the Big East. At a time where the AAC was (and still is) criticized for being a repainted C-USA, perception very much matters for how and why a league expands. Grabbing four schools from one league would have done more harm than good. In addition to the perception issue, the original five members of the BE (Nova, G'Town, Hall, Providence and SJ), they would have immediately been relinquishing their voice and direction with the new league moving forward, giving a louder say to the Midwestern programs, and, ultimately, moving the footprint further away from NYC (which is what the league aimed for in both 1979 and 2013). It was a very wise decision to only expand with three schools, especially since those three schools were all home run additions.

IMO, the growth of this version of the Big East has been nothing short of phenomenal. The ten-members each provided value and competed nationally against the other power conferences for the first years of existence. Nine teams made the tournament, Nova won two NCs, Xavier got a #1 seed, Butler made a S16, the ratings continued to improve and the league reached a point where it was regularly selling out MSG for the BET. Then, UConn returns - one of the strongest basketball brands nationally, and a huge fit in the NE/NYC. In a few years, when the BE has reached a new growth level and there is value revealed through expansion, I have zero doubt that UD and SLU are both on-deck. They are doing everything they need to do to prepare themselves for that call-up. One of the many shames of this pandemic is not being able to see what UD would have been able to do this March; getting a deep run to add to Archie's E8 run a few years ago would have only added to its resume.

For a non-football league, I do think 14 members is an ideal set-up (as long as each of those members are like-minded and share the same visions athletic department-wise). It eliminates the round-robin, but - long-term - having more competitive and top-level teams and brands provides much more value than in the immediate term to guaranteeing a home/home with every single program within the conference. In addition, you gain more sessions/games for the BET, which - along with more conference teams/games - gives the league more content to sell to the networks (Fox/CBS). By the time 2030 comes around, I have strong confidence that we will end up seeing both Dayton and SLU in the Big East. If UConn still remains (there will always be a small chance they could wiggle their way into the ACC), another public (like UMass or VCU) to pair with them would cement the league's membership well into the future.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Working on Day 9 of staying the house, sheltering myself and family from the outside world. I am running out of (good) content. Another discussion about adding a 12th team surely is scraping the bottom of the barrel. The UD/X contingencies certainly don't seem to like each other much, that's for sure. The only teams that I would have ever considered adding since the beginning is/was: UConn, ND (if they somehow had a change of heart about the ACC and wanted to join the other catholic schools--I know, zero chance), & Gonzaga. I look at the rest (Dayton included) and say: "meh."

But two ridiculous statements IMO from each side.

FFlyer: "Dayton was the most talked about team in college hoops."
Um, no. Even when Nova won 2 NC's in '16 and '18 they were still behind Duke, UNC, UK and KU (and maybe even UVA) in terms of "most talked about." So there's that. ESPN hypes all things that appear on their network. Other than the late season, impromptu Game Day visit, I don't recall seeing Dayton all that much on ESPN. Obi T. probably got more mentions than the collective Dayton team. Unfortunately for you guys there were 2 other non-power conference teams (SDSU & Zags) that occupied that "root for the underdog" mantle as well. So maybe in Dayton they were "most talked about," but that certainly wasn't the case anywhere else.

Dash: "Half the BE conference would have matched your record."
I don't buy this side of the argument either. I think they were a very good team. I would have expected Dayton to be in that Nova, CU, SHU top tier. I find it highly unlikely that they would get anything other than a split vs. those top teams. Then trying to beat Butler twice, PC twice, Marq twice, and then escape all those other games vs. X, SJU, G'town and even DePaul. Good luck there; it would have taken it's toll. So instead of 29-2, I'm guessing they'd be around 24-7ish. 12-6/13-5 in league seems very realistic IMO. So they'd probably be in the same 2-4 seed range as the other top 3 BE teams this year.

Either way, Dayton isn't getting an invite any time soon and the HLOH posters aren't on the BE Presidents Board anyway. So who cares? Not sure why you Dayton fans need to come on here in an effort to get validation or acceptance that you had a good year. Congrats. Unfortunately without a March Madness this year, this team will never be remembered for much of anything other than that A10 reg. season Champ. banner. You'll always have that.

[ArmyVet]

FF: for all I know you might provide the best analysis on this board, but the minute I see multiple quotes and a rainbow of colors in each and every one of your posts, my eyes gloss over and I skip to the next reply. Getting your point across would likely be much easier if you provided a succinct comment rather than turning every post into a novella.

[MUBoxer]

Anyone using Niche to rank universities instantly loses credibility.

1. They factor in neighborhood safety and quality which instantly puts schools in large urban settings, particularly Jesuit schools which are usually in rougher neighborhoods, at a major disadvantage.

2. They factor in a ton of other useless metrics. Diversity? Loan amount? I went to a CPS HS then a suburban HS that was even more diverse than my CPS school, it's great for diverse thought but not correlated to great school or else cheaper directional schools would own the more expensive private schools. Loan amount? This is idiotic, it has zero to do with college quality.

Bottom line is Niche is a joke, in an attempt to go wayyyy overboard with analysis he has a tendency to not review data.

That being said, I wouldn't hate Dayton in the conference, and respect them for capitalizing on the opportunity of a seriously weaker A10 now that Xavier and Temple aren't around (and that brief period with Butler).

[Xudash]

Working on Day 9 of staying the house, sheltering myself and family from the outside world. I am running out of (good) content. Another discussion about adding a 12th team surely is scraping the bottom of the barrel. The UD/X contingencies certainly don't seem to like each other much, that's for sure. The only teams that I would have ever considered adding since the beginning is/was: UConn, ND (if they somehow had a change of heart about the ACC and wanted to join the other catholic schools--I know, zero chance), & Gonzaga. I look at the rest (Dayton included) and say: "meh."

But two ridiculous statements IMO from each side.

FFlyer: "Dayton was the most talked about team in college hoops."
Um, no. Even when Nova won 2 NC's in '16 and '18 they were still behind Duke, UNC, UK and KU (and maybe even UVA) in terms of "most talked about." So there's that. ESPN hypes all things that appear on their network. Other than the late season, impromptu Game Day visit, I don't recall seeing Dayton all that much on ESPN. Obi T. probably got more mentions than the collective Dayton team. Unfortunately for you guys there were 2 other non-power conference teams (SDSU & Zags) that occupied that "root for the underdog" mantle as well. So maybe in Dayton they were "most talked about," but that certainly wasn't the case anywhere else.

Dash: "Half the BE conference would have matched your record."
I don't buy this side of the argument either. I think they were a very good team. I would have expected Dayton to be in that Nova, CU, SHU top tier. I find it highly unlikely that they would get anything other than a split vs. those top teams. Then trying to beat Butler twice, PC twice, Marq twice, and then escape all those other games vs. X, SJU, G'town and even DePaul. Good luck there; it would have taken it's toll. So instead of 29-2, I'm guessing they'd be around 24-7ish. 12-6/13-5 in league seems very realistic IMO. So they'd probably be in the same 2-4 seed range as the other top 3 BE teams this year.

Either way, Dayton isn't getting an invite any time soon and the HLOH posters aren't on the BE Presidents Board anyway. So who cares? Not sure why you Dayton fans need to come on here in an effort to get validation or acceptance that you had a good year. Congrats. Unfortunately without a March Madness this year, this team will never be remembered for much of anything other than that A10 reg. season Champ. banner. You'll always have that.

How dare you, Gumby. Muddled's post was ridiculous. That part of my post was simply over the top.

Otherwise, talk about an epic fail. Overstating a program's value and institution's position, and insulting the very programs you want your program to desperately join is not a good course to take. At least Muddled's color-coded idiocy and reliance on bad data to defend his weak position is more entertaining than annoying, and it certainly adds to the rep of the Dayton fanbase being delusional.

We have a long offseason to get through. It's up to the moderators to control or let fly the Dayton drivel from here. Personally, I'm ready to begin contemplating UCONN's formal entry into the conference and what that especially means for the media agreement moving forward.

We have a lot to look forward to the way we're about to be set up as an 11-member conference. And our results to-date and the strength those results have generated continue to provide us the luxury of being proactive, not reactive. The Big East has the luxury of controlling its timing for strategic actions for a while.

[Hoopfan]

Working on Day 9 of staying the house, sheltering myself and family from the outside world. I am running out of (good) content. Another discussion about adding a 12th team surely is scraping the bottom of the barrel. The UD/X contingencies certainly don't seem to like each other much, that's for sure. The only teams that I would have ever considered adding since the beginning is/was: UConn, ND (if they somehow had a change of heart about the ACC and wanted to join the other catholic schools--I know, zero chance), & Gonzaga. I look at the rest (Dayton included) and say: "meh."

But two ridiculous statements IMO from each side.

FFlyer: "Dayton was the most talked about team in college hoops."
Um, no. Even when Nova won 2 NC's in '16 and '18 they were still behind Duke, UNC, UK and KU (and maybe even UVA) in terms of "most talked about." So there's that. ESPN hypes all things that appear on their network. Other than the late season, impromptu Game Day visit, I don't recall seeing Dayton all that much on ESPN. Obi T. probably got more mentions than the collective Dayton team. Unfortunately for you guys there were 2 other non-power conference teams (SDSU & Zags) that occupied that "root for the underdog" mantle as well. So maybe in Dayton they were "most talked about," but that certainly wasn't the case anywhere else.

Dash: "Half the BE conference would have matched your record."
I don't buy this side of the argument either. I think they were a very good team. I would have expected Dayton to be in that Nova, CU, SHU top tier. I find it highly unlikely that they would get anything other than a split vs. those top teams. Then trying to beat Butler twice, PC twice, Marq twice, and then escape all those other games vs. X, SJU, G'town and even DePaul. Good luck there; it would have taken it's toll. So instead of 29-2, I'm guessing they'd be around 24-7ish. 12-6/13-5 in league seems very realistic IMO. So they'd probably be in the same 2-4 seed range as the other top 3 BE teams this year.

Either way, Dayton isn't getting an invite any time soon and the HLOH posters aren't on the BE Presidents Board anyway. So who cares? Not sure why you Dayton fans need to come on here in an effort to get validation or acceptance that you had a good year. Congrats. Unfortunately without a March Madness this year, this team will never be remembered for much of anything other than that A10 reg. season Champ. banner. You'll always have that.

How dare you, Gumby. Muddled's post was ridiculous. That part of my post was simply over the top.

Otherwise, talk about an epic fail. Overstating a program's value and institution's position, and insulting the very programs you want your program to desperately join is not a good course to take. At least Muddled's color-coded idiocy and reliance on bad data to defend his weak position is more entertaining than annoying, and it certainly adds to the rep of the Dayton fanbase being delusional.

We have a long offseason to get through. It's up to the moderators to control or let fly the Dayton drivel from here. Personally, I'm ready to begin contemplating UCONN's formal entry into the conference and what that especially means for the media agreement moving forward.

We have a lot to look forward to the way we're about to be set up as an 11-member conference. And our results to-date and the strength those results have generated continue to provide us the luxury of being proactive, not reactive. The Big East has the luxury of controlling its timing for strategic actions for a while.

Anyone who tries to defend X as a better academic institution than Dayton loses credibility right away. Muddy does take it overboard on every message board but you (or whichever X poster it was) threw the bait out