BET or Regular Season Title

[MUBoxer]

I keep seeing this bright lights of the worlds most famous arena thing being repeated. MSG is vastly overrated as the most famous arena

This isn't gonna go well with the northeast folks... The MGS probably isn't even close to being the most famous venue in the world, but it certainly is the best basketball arena in the world imo.

The basketball world calls it the Mecca, the Press universally recognizes it as that and every conference would give their left you know what to play in it. It does not matter one iota what some yokel in Milwaukee thinks or Rhode Island either.

For the record I'm neither from Milwaukee nor live in Milwaukee... it's almost like people move at some point 7yrs after having left their Alma Mater...

That being said I've only heard it referred to as the greatest arena in CBB not so it's not the whole basketball world. But you are right it doesn't matter what either of us think

[Bogg]

I just want to point out that starting next season, the regular season will be 20 games and will mean that much more to every team in the conference.

But yeah, back to talking which A10 team is the best candidate and why the AAC doomed.

I mean, sure, but if the argument is going to be that it's somehow illogical to think Providence in 2014 or Seton Hall in 2016 had an enjoyable season, it's worth pointing out that both teams finished third in the Big East and had 20+ win regular seasons. These weren't 8-seeds that caught lightning in a bottle for four days. Since the reorg the eventual tourney champion finished T3-1-3-1-2-1 in the regular season. These arguments being built around poor teams winning the tournament aren't really grounded in reality.

[XUFan09]

[quote="XUFan09"
Hey, you're the one imagining up sour grapes and implying a longing of Midwesterners over 25 years for their team to play in the Big East Tournament because you can't seem to understand that other fans might have different motivations from you.

Longing? No, I was pointing out in 25 years no mid-west team has WON not that they haven't played in. It's about down playing something you guys don't do well in.[/quote]

Hardly about downplaying something we don't have. I have said I want to win it and that it's important. I just care about the tournament that comes after it far more, so I care about maximizing seeding for that tournament more than anything until the field is announced on Selection Sunday. It seems like you're projecting your frustrations as a St. John's fans because your program hasn't won either in 20 years. Either that or you foolishly think people in the Midwest whose teams haven't been in the Big East long care about New York things and Big East traditions as much as you.

[XUFan09]

I just want to point out that starting next season, the regular season will be 20 games and will mean that much more to every team in the conference.

But yeah, back to talking which A10 team is the best candidate and why the AAC doomed.

I mean, sure, but if the argument is going to be that it's somehow illogical to think Providence in 2014 or Seton Hall in 2016 had an enjoyable season, it's worth pointing out that both teams finished third in the Big East and had 20+ win regular seasons. These weren't 8-seeds that caught lightning in a bottle for four days. Since the reorg the eventual tourney champion finished T3-1-3-1-2-1 in the regular season. These arguments being built around poor teams winning the tournament aren't really grounded in reality.

3rd place was garbage in 2014 for a power conference. One team got an at-large bid for the play-in game, one got a double-digit seed when they wouldn't have made the tournament without winning the BET, and one team had the dubious honor of being a 1 seed in the NIT. Meanwhile, the 2nd place team was a 3 seed, contributing to my stance that 2nd place plus a BET championship is better than 1st place without a BET championship.

3rd place was much better in 2016, but Seton Hall still was 4 seeds behind 1st place and 2nd place despite beating both on a neutral court on their way to winning the BET. It's closer, but I think I'd rather be 2 seed Villanova that year heading into the tournament than 6 seed Seton Hall, despite not winning the Big East championship.

Nova has dominated the BET in the new Big East, so we don't have other examples. Overall, though, I'd say that any of the top 6 seeds have a really good shot at winning the BET, and in the long run with more seasons, I think we'll see that play out. So, it's very plausible that the 5th place team (say Marquette or Butler this year) wins it all. 5th place Providence almost ended up winning it last year, and they only ended up with a 10 seed to Xavier's 1 seed.

[FriarJ]

For the record I'm neither from Milwaukee nor live in Milwaukee... it's almost like people move at some point 7yrs after having left their Alma Mater...

That being said I've only heard it referred to as the greatest arena in CBB not so it's not the whole basketball world. But you are right it doesn't matter what either of us think

Too funny, I'm not in RI either. Let's just keep it that we don't care what the yahoo's in Milwaukee and RI say.

[scoscox]

Doesn't the mecca thing go back to the original NIT days? everyone would come to new york to play in the tournament at the garden. pre-point shaving most of the best teams were new york teams

and "most famous arena" is mostly from boxing

what would you consider the biggest rivals to MSG for that title?

Dickies Arena?... I kid

[Bogg]

3rd place was garbage in 2014 for a power conference. One team got an at-large bid for the play-in game, one got a double-digit seed when they wouldn't have made the tournament without winning the BET, and one team had the dubious honor of being a 1 seed in the NIT. Meanwhile, the 2nd place team was a 3 seed, contributing to my stance that 2nd place plus a BET championship is better than 1st place without a BET championship.

2014 was garbage in general (well, not for UConn), the #s 1 and 2 in the regular season both washed out in the second round and the conference was done the first weekend. Providence got a for-real trophy and banner out of it though.

I feel like it's getting glossed over that the regular season champion has been bounced in the second round of the NCAAs every year but one. There's no assumption of a national title, or even competing for one, that comes with either option here.

[XUFan09]

3rd place was garbage in 2014 for a power conference. One team got an at-large bid for the play-in game, one got a double-digit seed when they wouldn't have made the tournament without winning the BET, and one team had the dubious honor of being a 1 seed in the NIT. Meanwhile, the 2nd place team was a 3 seed, contributing to my stance that 2nd place plus a BET championship is better than 1st place without a BET championship.

2014 was garbage in general (well, not for UConn), the #s 1 and 2 in the regular season both washed out in the second round and the conference was done the first weekend. Providence got a for-real trophy and banner out of it though.

I feel like it's getting glossed over that the regular season champion has been bounced in the second round of the NCAAs every year but one. There's no assumption of a national title, or even competing for one, that comes with either option here.

It hasn't been glossed over. It's been addressed. The NCAA Tournament is single-elimination, so no team's odds are good. It's just about putting yourself in the best position so you have an okay chance. And I already did a long post in this thread showing how much more often the national champion was a regular season champion but conference tournament loser rather than the reverse. That's because regular season champions on average are in better position for the NCAA Tournament than conference tournament champions when they're different teams. You can throw out exceptions here and there, but the averages play out. And this question in this thread is about which would you prefer, so logic dictates that you consider averages. It's not conditioned on whether you got 2nd place in the regular season or lost in the first round of the BET or went on a run in the NCAA Tournament or flamed out in the first weekend. It's about averages because none of that context is included in the hypothetical.

Now for the sake of this hypothetical, if on an emotional level, you really prefer the BET championship to what is likely better to much better tournament position (since you can't win both), that's fine. You do you. But as someone who cares about the BET, just on a lesser level than you relative to the NCAA Tournament, I'm going to take what is likely to be the better tournament position. I'll make exceptions for when it will be close, like 2nd place in the regular season and sometimes 3rd, but overall, I'll take the regular season. If Xavier snags a 6 seed for the BET and ends up winning it, I will love that, but I still would prefer the 2018 season to that outcome before considering possible tournament outcomes.

[MUBoxer]

Doesn't the mecca thing go back to the original NIT days? everyone would come to new york to play in the tournament at the garden. pre-point shaving most of the best teams were new york teams

and "most famous arena" is mostly from boxing

what would you consider the biggest rivals to MSG for that title?

Dickies Arena?... I kid

boxing at the MGM is far more prestigious now. Someone from NYC can argue all they want about this one but I spent 15yrs of my 29 boxing and we weren't dreaming of fighting in NYC.

I guess it depends. I think Wembly is the most famous sporting/concert venue. If someone were to say indoor only for all levels of basketball the Staples center takes the cake. You walk by statues of George Mikkan, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, West, Baylor, eventually Koby, not to mention the associations logo is Jerry West. So if one accepts that NBA is greater than college in terms of popularity its likely there.

[Bogg]

3rd place was garbage in 2014 for a power conference. One team got an at-large bid for the play-in game, one got a double-digit seed when they wouldn't have made the tournament without winning the BET, and one team had the dubious honor of being a 1 seed in the NIT. Meanwhile, the 2nd place team was a 3 seed, contributing to my stance that 2nd place plus a BET championship is better than 1st place without a BET championship.

2014 was garbage in general (well, not for UConn), the #s 1 and 2 in the regular season both washed out in the second round and the conference was done the first weekend. Providence got a for-real trophy and banner out of it though.

I feel like it's getting glossed over that the regular season champion has been bounced in the second round of the NCAAs every year but one. There's no assumption of a national title, or even competing for one, that comes with either option here.

It hasn't been glossed over. It's been addressed. The NCAA Tournament is single-elimination, so no team's odds are good. It's just about putting yourself in the best position so you have an okay chance. And I already did a long post in this thread showing how much more often the national champion was a regular season champion but conference tournament loser rather than the reverse. That's because regular season champions on average are in better position for the NCAA Tournament than conference tournament champions when they're different teams. You can throw out exceptions here and there, but the averages play out. And this question in this thread is about which would you prefer, so logic dictates that you consider averages. It's not conditioned on whether you got 2nd place in the regular season or lost in the first round of the BET or went on a run in the NCAA Tournament or flamed out in the first weekend. It's about averages because none of that context is included in the hypothetical.

Now for the sake of this hypothetical, if on an emotional level, you really prefer the BET championship to what is likely better to much better tournament position (since you can't win both), that's fine. You do you. But as someone who cares about the BET, just on a lesser level than you relative to the NCAA Tournament, I'm going to take what is likely to be the better tournament position. I'll make exceptions for when it will be close, like 2nd place in the regular season and sometimes 3rd, but overall, I'll take the regular season. If Xavier snags a 6 seed for the BET and ends up winning it, I will love that, but I still would prefer the 2018 season to that outcome before considering possible tournament outcomes.

I dunno man, the Big East 1-seed and the Big East champion have won the national title with the same frequency. If on some emotional level you think additional wins in February are more meaningful than wins and trophies in March, that's cool I guess. Seems like Bearcat thinking, but maybe it's a Cincinnati thing. Logically, I prefer championships to not-championships.