Big 5- Martelli gone

[adoraz]

There are definitely some downsides. If there weren't, then every power team in the nation would follow their model. As it stands, nobody else does.

I get that they don't need to physically travel too much, but I think they'd be better off making these games home or neutral (and in some cases, not scheduling at all).

If they win all 4, then it's worth it. For the most part they have done that, because they were a historically dominate team for years. Now, however, they aren't at that level. They already lost once this year @ Penn. I expect that to keep happening going forward. They nearly lost a couple of the other games, too. I anticipate Nova fans are going to sour on these games very soon.

As a Johnnies fan, if you told me we signed up for H&Hs with Columbia, LIU, Fordham and Wagner... I'd be pissed. Sounds terrible.

Temple, St Joe's, and Penn a lot different than those other programs...
Temple- making it's 10th NCAA appearance since 2000, 33 all time
St Joe's- 6 NCAA appearances since 2000, 21 all time
Penn- 7 NCAA appearances since 2000. 24 all time
even LaSalle made it once, 12 all time

Columbia- last appearance 1968, 3 ever
LIU- 4 NCAA apperances since 2000, 7 ever
Fordham- last appearance 1992, 4 ever
Wagner- 1 and only NCAA appearance 2003

so since 2000- Philly schools 24 times, your 5 schools 5 times.
All time, it's 90-15.

A HUGE difference.

Lol really? I just picked 4 random NYC teams. Wasn't trying to make a direct team for team comparison. Go ahead and replace teams like Wagner and LIU with Hofstra and St. Bonaventure. I'm certain you could find 4 NYC teams that have a better average NET than those 4 Philly teams. Yes, Philly no doubt has a better top 5 than NYC from a historical perspective, but everyone Nova faces (aside from maybe Temple) is a shell of their former selves.

In 2019 nobody cares about Penn, St. Joe's or La Salle. None of them are good teams nor do they have large fan bases. Temple is just meh, but acceptable.

Let's focus on this year and not decades ago. NET rankings:
#56 Temple
#110 Penn
#171 St. Joe's
#214 La Salle

Villanova is not even in the same league as any of those 4 schools based on what they've done the past 5 years. By playing them, Nova is doing them a major favor. Temple I could see making the case, but not the others. Freaking DePaul finished ahead of all of them but Temple. How are these games valuable to Nova?

As I've said though, as long as Jay Wright is happy with the games, then continue them. Do whatever Jay wants. I understand the nostalgic aspect of them.

[Xudash]

I've always felt that Phil squandered his opportunity to build from that peak in 2003, and 2004. Compare his results to what Chaney did after Temple was ranked #1 in 1988. Temple went on a 13 year run that saw them rule the Big5, have many ranked teams, and reach the Elite Eight 4 more times. St. Joe's quickly faded back into oblivion. This should be somewhat of a lesson to some of the teams in this league that were down, but have now tasted some success, as well as DePaul, who is still trying to rise. If you rise up, don't become content with that, you have to redouble your efforts to make your new status the norm, otherwise, you can quickly return to oblivion. Gonzaga, and Wichita are two very good examples of teams that leveraged a great season into sustained success, but for every one of those, there's a George Mason, or Wake Forest, who quickly fades after their run.

His administration didn't exactly help him.

I always thought that St. Joe's made a horrendous mistake when they decided to dump $15 million of an alum's money into that high school gym of theirs. They literally structured themselves into mid-majordom in fact - financial viability - and perception wise. When you become notable for an idiot mascot that stands there for an entire game, flapping its "wings" as some form of tradition, I believe it's safe to say that thinking small comes with the territory over there.

Look at where they've come from the year St. Joe's and Xavier were both playing for the Final 4 with both narrowly missing the final weekend. Martelli always was and I'm sure still is a class act. It's a shame it ended this way for him there. It's a shame they couldn't find a way to mutually navigate a more graceful exit.

As far as the Big 5 is concerned, I can't imagine any program from Philly wanting to give up on it. That is truly a unique thing with much tradition surrounding it. Besides, Nova couldn't be in a better place at this point, notwithstanding the Penn loss. The A10 is a complete mess and getting weaker by the year. Temple may be a factor moving forward. But, overall, Nova should continue to enjoy a lot of success playing their local rivals.

The only way Xavier would probably ever consider dumping UC off the schedule is if Mick Cronin is finally caught having sex in a threeway with two male sheep. It certainly is a bona fide risk, but we otherwise move forward believing that the Crosstown Shootout will be there year in and year out.

[stever20]

There are definitely some downsides. If there weren't, then every power team in the nation would follow their model. As it stands, nobody else does.

I get that they don't need to physically travel too much, but I think they'd be better off making these games home or neutral (and in some cases, not scheduling at all).

If they win all 4, then it's worth it. For the most part they have done that, because they were a historically dominate team for years. Now, however, they aren't at that level. They already lost once this year @ Penn. I expect that to keep happening going forward. They nearly lost a couple of the other games, too. I anticipate Nova fans are going to sour on these games very soon.

As a Johnnies fan, if you told me we signed up for H&Hs with Columbia, LIU, Fordham and Wagner... I'd be pissed. Sounds terrible.

Temple, St Joe's, and Penn a lot different than those other programs...
Temple- making it's 10th NCAA appearance since 2000, 33 all time
St Joe's- 6 NCAA appearances since 2000, 21 all time
Penn- 7 NCAA appearances since 2000. 24 all time
even LaSalle made it once, 12 all time

Columbia- last appearance 1968, 3 ever
LIU- 4 NCAA apperances since 2000, 7 ever
Fordham- last appearance 1992, 4 ever
Wagner- 1 and only NCAA appearance 2003

so since 2000- Philly schools 24 times, your 5 schools 5 times.
All time, it's 90-15.

A HUGE difference.

Lol really? I just picked 4 random NYC teams. Wasn't trying to make a direct team for team comparison. Go ahead and replace teams like Wagner and LIU with Hofstra and St. Bonaventure. I'm certain you could find 4 NYC teams that have a better average NET than those 4 Philly teams. Yes, Philly no doubt has a better top 5 than NYC from a historical perspective, but everyone Nova faces (aside from maybe Temple) is a shell of their former selves.

In 2019 nobody cares about Penn, St. Joe's or La Salle. None of them are good teams nor do they have large fan bases. Temple is just meh, but acceptable.

Let's focus on this year and not decades ago. NET rankings:
#56 Temple
#110 Penn
#171 St. Joe's
#214 La Salle

Villanova is not even in the same league as any of those 4 schools based on what they've done the past 5 years. By playing them, Nova is doing them a major favor. Temple I could see making the case, but not the others. Freaking DePaul finished ahead of all of them but Temple. How are these games valuable to Nova?

As I've said though, as long as Jay Wright is happy with the games, then continue them. Do whatever Jay wants. I understand the nostalgic aspect of them.

St Bonaventure is in upstate New York, and Hofstra has all of 4 NCAA appearances ever. So neither one help the situation out at all. There's nothing in NYC to compare to what the Big 5 has.

Nova gets helped because they first off get credit for 2 road games, a major factor in tourney selection. This year in a not good year, they also got 2 Q2 games out of it, in a bad year. Last year they got a Q1 and 2 Q3 wins. And what would replace it is dreg OOC games. They aren't going to play more quality games if you replace the Big 5.

[scoscox]

Kinda sad that they fired him. You'd think they'd let him retire.

[XUFan09]

I look at it completely opposite. Nova really benefits by getting to earn credit for "road wins" without ever leaving town.

Yep. Also, it's not like you would replace the home games with big-time games. Villanova just has fewer traditional buy games than other programs. For example, Xavier generally has 5 buy games plus an exempt tournament add-on, while Nova has 3.

That means Xavier gets to generate extra revenue from +1 or +2 home games. Come back at me when Xavier plays @Dayton.

3 traditional buy games + 2 Big 5 home games = 5 home games of a similar caliber to Xavier's 6 buy games generating ticket revenue. This is all without taking into account home-and-homes. And Xavier sometimes doesn't take the exempt tournament buy game or they play an extra game on the road instead of one of their home buy games, bringing the buy game number down to 5, equivalent to Nova's games against weak non-conference teams. The ticket revenue argument is weak when two of the Big 5 opponents are at home replacing buy games.

Also, I'm on board with playing Dayton again. A lot of Xavier fans are on board with playing them again. So, how is Xavier not playing Dayton relevant at all to anything else I said? And even if I wasn't on board with that, like some Xavier fans, it's a false equivalence to act like it's the exact same situation.

[GumbyDamnit!]

I think you'll find a majority of Nova fans are in favor of keeping the Big 5. It's a local honor, and a camaraderie similar to the Big East. It's a Philly thing; I'd assume any Nova fan who looks down on the Big 5 is likely from someplace else.

If "keeping" the Big 5 has to be at 4 games per year and no less, Nova's the only party that's compromising. It was a Philly thing to play all those games at the Palestra, too.

Anyway, the suggestion that changes will be made to the current arrangement because Martelli is gone is ridiculous. If anything, Jay will probably be relied on being a leader of the Big 5 now... smh

The only compromise that I think COULD work is a weekend tournament scenario. Everyone plays at the Wells Fargo. The 4th and 5th place teams play during the week, and then two double headers on Friday and Sunday. Winners advance, losers play in consolation game. So it goes from (4) B5 games to (2) and the double headers create intrigue and an interesting atmosphere at WFC with all schools playing together. But otherwise I think you just stick with it.

I don't think it hurts us and there is a tone that we've been able to set that we are the Alpha School in Philly recruiting. So when the next Kyle Lowry, Jason Lawson or Alvin Williams comes along and wants to stick close to home, there is no debate over which school he'll choose.

[adoraz]

Temple, St Joe's, and Penn a lot different than those other programs...
Temple- making it's 10th NCAA appearance since 2000, 33 all time
St Joe's- 6 NCAA appearances since 2000, 21 all time
Penn- 7 NCAA appearances since 2000. 24 all time
even LaSalle made it once, 12 all time

Columbia- last appearance 1968, 3 ever
LIU- 4 NCAA apperances since 2000, 7 ever
Fordham- last appearance 1992, 4 ever
Wagner- 1 and only NCAA appearance 2003

so since 2000- Philly schools 24 times, your 5 schools 5 times.
All time, it's 90-15.

A HUGE difference.

Lol really? I just picked 4 random NYC teams. Wasn't trying to make a direct team for team comparison. Go ahead and replace teams like Wagner and LIU with Hofstra and St. Bonaventure. I'm certain you could find 4 NYC teams that have a better average NET than those 4 Philly teams. Yes, Philly no doubt has a better top 5 than NYC from a historical perspective, but everyone Nova faces (aside from maybe Temple) is a shell of their former selves.

In 2019 nobody cares about Penn, St. Joe's or La Salle. None of them are good teams nor do they have large fan bases. Temple is just meh, but acceptable.

Let's focus on this year and not decades ago. NET rankings:
#56 Temple
#110 Penn
#171 St. Joe's
#214 La Salle

Villanova is not even in the same league as any of those 4 schools based on what they've done the past 5 years. By playing them, Nova is doing them a major favor. Temple I could see making the case, but not the others. Freaking DePaul finished ahead of all of them but Temple. How are these games valuable to Nova?

As I've said though, as long as Jay Wright is happy with the games, then continue them. Do whatever Jay wants. I understand the nostalgic aspect of them.

St Bonaventure is in upstate New York, and Hofstra has all of 4 NCAA appearances ever. So neither one help the situation out at all. There's nothing in NYC to compare to what the Big 5 has.

Nova gets helped because they first off get credit for 2 road games, a major factor in tourney selection. This year in a not good year, they also got 2 Q2 games out of it, in a bad year. Last year they got a Q1 and 2 Q3 wins. And what would replace it is dreg OOC games. They aren't going to play more quality games if you replace the Big 5.

Once again, that's not the point. You could make a NY state version of it, or whatever, but again that is not the point.

Forget about the direct comparison: I am simply saying the 4 schools Nova agrees to H&Hs with every year are not worthy of H&Hs with Nova (or any Big East team).

Nova's opponents:
#56 Temple
#110 Penn
#171 St. Joe's
#214 La Salle

I don't think Nova should be agreeing to H&Hs with 3 teams that are worse than the worst team in the Big East.

If Nova beats all 4 teams, then yes, it is worth it. That is something that didn't happen this year. That is really tough to do unless they are historically good... as in National Championship caliber #1 seed good. Then they could beat anyone, regardless.

Here is all that matters: were these games worth it to Nova this year? No. The Temple win was easily the best, but it was only Q2. Beating #171 St. Joe's at home did not help their resume at all. Winning @ #214 La Salle didn't help. And LOSING at #110 Penn definitely didn't help.

The problem with these games is you never know how bad the teams will be each year, and the games simply weren't worth it this year. Needing to sweep against 4 local rivals, 2 of which are away in hostile mid major gyms, is ridiculous.

If anything, limit it to 2 opponents each year rather than 4.

Edit: I like Gumby's idea, though the only issue is they'd count as home games rather than neutral.

[gtmoBlue]

Gumby's Wells Fargo tourney has merit. I would be in favor of the Big Five back at the Palestra as my 1st option though.
I do not follow closely enough to know how the current arrangement of H&H's evolved, but if change is afoot, then a return to the Palestra is probably in order.
Whatever shakes out - the Big 5 battles should remain. History and tradition still have a place in college hoops (if only for another few years before greed, avarice,
corporate ownership, cheating, the NBA, and all else that's wrong in the game finally win.), for now.

As for Martelli not keeping the program strong after the 2003-04 heights. St Joe's is what, 3rd or 4th in the Philly pecking order. St Joe's, even with their tradition, is a
small midmajor school. It's tougher than you think to get and stay at the top...especially for a middie in a lesser league. Recruiting is ALWAYS an uphill battle. And injuries...
remember these last 3 years of Phil's tenure have been filled with injured players. Coach was doin good to keep the program afloat as it is. Martelli will be missed, as will Fran.

2 institution guys leaving the game...sad month of March. Now, if we can get a couple of ROAD coaches to hit the bricks...it will make the month better.
Folks in the Big O are hoping for an NIT run for lil Creighton to take the heat off Mac...figuring that 20 w's cures all ails. It doesn't. Over the course of his 6 years in the BEAST Mac
has morphed into a average coach, with middlin major results.

Jays Fanfolks think that he won't be fired by the current AD as they are tight and he hits the 20 W mark with frequency. Given. Plus the minions are afraid any replacement might
fail to reach even Macs low-water marks. Fear is one helluva thing in a conservative, pessimistic, midwestern fanbase, such as Creighton's. Fear grows to larger-than-life proportions
and rules over reason, rationality, faith, and even hopes.

However, even with 20 Ws his annual talley of double digit losses, the lack of competitiveness in winning championships, and lack of success when finally reaching an NCAA tourney far
outreach his middlin achievements. Here's hoping that Prez Hendrickson is a hoops junky and can assess Mac's 9 years overall record, Mac's 6 in the BEast, and see that it's time for a
coaching upgrade. Creighton needs to overcome fan fears, the AD's lethargy, and hopes for a marginally improving status quo from Mac. It's time to hire a better coach to take the Jays
Program to the next level. Mac has shown us that he isn't able to do it. Time for new coaching blood. Time to end the McDermott era at Creighton after 9 years.

[adoraz]

GTMO, I get what you're saying, but fear in moderation is necessary. It is what keeps people from doing potentially reckless behavior. I'm fairly certain if Mac was fired, Creighton's AD/President would get a LOT of backlash from the press. Creighton would be almost universally mocked for firing him. If their next hire didn't immediately work out (NCAA year 1), the AD would be on very thin ice.

Because Mac made the NCAA in both 2017 and 2018, and this year the team ultimately met pre-season expectations (actually may have even surpassed them), it'd be really tough to fire him. That's just how the situation is.

I agree Creighton can and should be better than they are. But I still think Mac needs one more year before he could be let go.

I'd say this: give him one more year. What is the worst that would happen? He would not make the NCAAs and then Creighton would be free to hire whomever without receiving much backlash.

In a way, the situation is very similar to Chris Mullin... except Mullin has had FAR worse results than Mac (with this year being the exception- and even then Mac still did better relative to expectations). If we had let Mullin go last year, it would have been a really bad look for the school. It's also almost certain that a player or two like Ponds or Heron would've left or decommitted. Creighton I believe has a lot of pieces coming back next year, and with new coaching hires there are always players who decommit or transfer.

All I'm saying is as fans, we often go after the coaches most because all of us could stand on the sidelines but none of us could dunk like the players. Creighton is in a tough situation like St. John's is (Mullin is still very much in doubt long-term), and being a little conservative I think is ultimately the best route to take.

[gtmoBlue]

Mac got an extension on his "lifetime" contract from the AD, who hired him 9 yrs ago. Bruce, the AD is an icon, built CU Sports, singlehandedly, while skating uphill to school-and uphill home (both ways). Bruce has 20+ years and will stay until he decides to retire. The new Prez (Fr Hendrickson) would have to take matters into his hands and force the issue, which is unlikely.

Mac's not going anywhere, but I refuse to stop bitching...cause he's not getting the job done! Creighton has the dinars to get a reinvigorated Matta or buy Pitino Sr. (allegations not proven) to win now, not waiting, hoping that Mac gets his sh_t together in the sweet by and by. After nine seasons you know what you have in a coach...he ain't changing stripes and becoming a "world-beater" all of a sudden in year 10.