Delaney Wants B1G Tourney at MSG and Not a Week Early...

[kayako]

I'm looking at these schools from an arrogant northeastern point of view, but this is the way a casual NYC fan would react to these schools playing at MSG... would workers in lower Manhattan skip out of work on a March afternoon to watch some of these B1G teams? It's been shown that they will for the hometown Big East, where they revere our history and respect our teams. I'm going by memory and off the top of my head here... maybe this is misguided but i think (right or wrong) it's what a casual NY fan would feel...

I agree. B1G's had pretty good tourney success and the NBE has some catching up to do, but your perspective is what's relevant on this issue.

[adoraz]

Those early ACC/B1G games (@Barclays/MSG) always have atrocious attendance.

I don't see how adding an additional day would help when those first round games never get close to selling out. MSG's #1 concern is having people in the seats, so they can buy food and drinks. BE has been delivering on that, and further guarantees they won't move anywhere else.

I actually think adding an additional day would be a bad thing for both parties.

[Savannah Jay]

I think expansion may be an absolute must.....

I mean ACC and Big Ten have 3 more sessions than the Big East tourney has. That's pretty big. In a 5 year period that's like having 2 extra tournaments just about.

Going to 12 teams would create an extra session on Wednesdays without taking up an extra day. But I'm not very familiar with stadium booking management, so I don't know if an extra day is a plus or minus.

Stever is incorrect. The Big Ten has 7 sessions, which is only 2 more than the Big East. The ACC has 6 sessions, plus something called "Opening Day" where the bottom six play each other for winners to add to the top 9, for a 12 team bracket with the 6 sessions. For some reason, they don't call that a session or sessions.

The attendance listed for the first day of ACC was 10,612 for each of the 3 games. Did they add them together?

[billyjack]

I'm going to look at this again tomorrow for corrections, typos or just re-assessment...

I decided to dive deeper into some B1G school history. Remember, I was born in 1968, and started following college hoops in around 1977. Some schools under discussion in 77 were in the middle of lean years, and didn't have significant success until i was in my 20's or 30's. So that affects my perspective and maybe it seems like I'm being unfair. But i am here to learn.

Anyway, i decided to look in more depth at the next B1G school of my list...

OHIO STATE:
The program goes back to 1898, but kinda gets good in the late 1930's.

Ohio State in 1939, under a long-time coach named Harold Olsen, made the first NCAA tourney and advanced to the final, where they lost to Oregon. OSU was good thru 1946 when Olsen stepped down, but fell into a funk thru the 1950's under two different coaches (Tippy Dye and Floyd Stahl).

Harold Olsen highlights:
1939 - went 16-7, made National Final.
1944 - went 14-7, made Final Four.
1945 - went 15-5, made Final Four.
1946 - went 16-5, made Final Four.

Tippy Dye Highlights:
at OSU 1947 thru 1950, went 53-34.
1950 went 22-4, made NCAAs.
Then took Washington Huskies job in 1951 and took them to a Final Four in 1953.

Floyd Stahl Highlights:
Had previously coached Harvard from 1944 to 1946, making NCAA's in 1946 (lost to OSU in 1st Round).
at OSU from 1951 thru 1958, went 84-92.

In 1959, the Buckeyes hired Fred Taylor, who coached thru 1976. They had a dominant run from 1960 thru 1962 (National Championship and two National Finals losses to Cincinnati) with Jerry Lucas and John Havlicek (Bobby Knight was in their same Class of '62, but was a bit player on those teams).

Fred Taylor Highlights:
at OSU from 1959 thru 1976, went 297-158.
1960 - went 25-3, won National Championship by beating Western Kentucky, Ga Tech, NYU, and finally Cal by 20.
1961 - went 27-1, made National Final vs Cincy after beating Louisville, Kentucky, and St Joe's.
1962 - went 26-2, made National Final vs Cincy after beating Western Kentucky, Kentucky, and Wake Forest.

1968 - went 21-8, made Final Four by beating East Tennessee State and Kentucky, then lost to UNC.
1971 - went 20-6, made Elite-8 by beating Marquette by 1, then lost to Western Kentucky.

OSU's last 3 years under Taylor were weak:
1974 - went 9-15.
1975 - went 14-14.
1976 - went 6-20.

For 1977 (the year i generally consider my first to have followed college hoops) they hired Eldon Miller. I have no recollection of Miller, for better or worse. Apparently, Miller had been a 500 coach at Western Michigan for 5 years before going 25-3 in his 6th year (1976), after which he got the Buckeye job. His 1976 WMU team beat Va Tech before losing to #2 Marquette.

Miller was at OSU for 10 years. His Buckeyes won 20 games in 4 of those 10 seasons, and earned his 4 NCAA bids in each of those specific seasons.

Eldon Miller, Year by Year:
1977 - went 9-18.
1978 - went 16-11.
1979 - went 19-12.
1980 - went 21-8, made NCAA Sweet-16 by beating Arizona State, then lost to UCLA.
1981 - went 14-13.
1982 - went 21-10, made NCAA, lost to James Madison.
1983 - went 20-10, made NCAA Sweet-16 by beating Syracuse (typical Boeheim choke job), then lost to UNC.
1984 - went 15-14.
1985 - went 20-10, made NCAA, beat Iowa State, then lost to Louisiana Tech (Karl Malone).
1986 - went 19-14.
Ohio State let go of Miller, who moved on to Northern Iowa.

Gary Williams (from Boston College):
1987 - went 20-13, made NCAA, beat Kentucky, then lost to Georgetown of the Big East.
1988 - went 20-13, made NIT final but lost to Connecticut of the Big East.
1989 - went 19-15, made NIT final-8 but lost to St John's of the Big East.

Randy Ayers:
1990 - went 17-13, made NCAA, beat Providence cuz Rick Barnes sucked in late games, then lost to UNLV.
1991 - went 27-4, made NCAA Sweet-16 with 1-seed, beat Towson and Ga Tech, lost to St John's of the Big East by 17.
1992 - went 26-6, made NCAA Elite-8 with 1-seed, beat Mississippi Valley, UConn, UNC, then lost to Michigan.
1993 - went 15-13.
1994 - went 13-16.
1995 - went 6-22.
1996 - went 10-17.
1997 - went 10-17 again.

Jim O'Brien:
1998 - went 8-22.
1999 - VACATED - 27-9 - NCAA F4 by beat Murray St, Detroit, Auburn and St John's, then lost to UConn of the Big East.
2000 - VACATED - 23-7 - NCAA, beat Appy State, then lost to Miami of Fla of the Big East by 13.
2001 - VACATED - 20-11 - NCAA, lost to Utah State.
2002 - VACATED - 24-8 - had NCAA, beat Davidson, lost to Missouri.
2003 - went 17-15.
2004 - went 14-16.

Thad Matta:
2005 - went 20-12, self imposed postseason ban cuz of O'Brien.
2006 - went 26-6, made NCAA, beat Davidson, then lost to Georgetown of the Big East by 18.
2007 - went 35-4, made NCAA National Final by beating CCSU, Xavier, Tenn, Memphis and Georgetown, then lost to Florida.
2008 - went 24-13, won NIT.
2009 - went 22-11, made NCAA, lost to Siena.
2010 - went 29-8, made NCAA Sweet-16 by beating UCSB and Ga Tech, then losing to Tennessee.
2011 - went 34-3, made NCAA Sweet-16 by beating UTSA and George Mason, then losing to Kentucky.
2012 - went 31-8, made NCAA Final Four by beating Loyola, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, and Syracuse, then losing to Kansas.
2013 - went 29-8, made NCAA Elite-8 by beating Iona, Iowa State, and Arizona, then losing to Wichita State.
2014 - went 25-10, made NCAA, lost to Dayton.
2015 - went 24-11, made NCAA, beat VCU, then lost to Arizona.
2016 - went 21-14, made NIT.
2017 - went 17-15.

Chris Holtmann:
2018 - went 25-9 - made NCAA, beat South Dakota State, lost to Gonzaga.

So, that's the end of my 7th grade book report, a very interesting history for Ohio State, and i learned a lot. In conclusion, i would recommend this book to anyone who enjoys following college basketball.

Seriously though...
I'm biased against Ohio State due to their mediocre late 70's years, on thru to the end of Jim O'Brien. The "pre-Matta" days.

From 1971 thru 2005, not counting vacated seasons, Ohio State earned:
- zero Final Fours.
- one Elite-8, in 1992.
- three Sweet-16's, in 1980, 1983, 1991 (bounced by St John's).

- additionally, in 1987 they were bounced by Georgetown... in vacated 1999 they were bounced by UConn... in vacated 2000 they were bounced by Miami of Fla... in 2007 they were bounced by Georgetown.

- they did beat Syracuse in 1983 with Granville Waiters (who looked like he was 85 years old), because Boeheim used to choke every freaking year.
- they beat Providence in OT in 1990 out in Utah, because Rick Barnes was the absolute worst late-game coach in Friars history... omg, PC was up 3 with under 10 seconds, and Barnes didn't foul, and OSU drained a three. Absolutely horrible coaching.

I can see where a relatively younger fan would see oodles of success from Ohio State (and Wisconsin), which is understandable and legit. Me, though, at 50, saw a lot of lean or mediocre OSU years, a lot of big-hyped years with 1-seeds where they got bounced early (like 1991 when the Johnnies of the Big East crushed them after a season full of annoying non-stop Buckeye hype), and my brackets got busted cuz of them.

I also saw Jim O'Brien suck eggs for years at Boston College, the have good years at Ohio State which had me questioning the strength of the Big Ten, then i saw O'Brien get a string of his successful years vacated.

But they've made a ton of NCAA's, and though theyve underachieved a ton of years. They have built-in advantages of an enormous student body in a heavily populated and wealthy state, and they have a great history.
.

[billyjack]

TL:DR

Ohio State:

Fred Taylor:
1959.
1960 - National Championship, 4-0.
1961 - National Final, 3-1.
1962 - National Final, 3-1.
1963.
1964.
1965.
1966.
1967.
1968 - Final Four, 2-1.
1969.
1970.
1971 - Elite-8, 1-1.
1972.
1973.
1974.
1975.
1976.

Eldon Miller:
1977.
1978.
1979.
1980 - Sweet-16, 1-1..
1981.
1982 - Ncaa, 0-1.
1983 - Sweet-16, 1-1.
1984.
1985 - Ncaa, 1-1.
1986.

Gary Williams:
1987 - Ncaa, 1-1.
1988.
1989.

Randy Ayers:
1990 - Ncaa, 1-1.
1991 - Sweet-16, 2-1.
1992 - Elite-8, 3-1.
1993.
1994.
1995.
1996.
1997.

Jim O'Brien:
1998.
1999 - vacated.
2000 - vacated.
2001 - vacated.
2002 - vacated.
2003.
2004.

Thad Matta:
2005.
2006 - Ncaa, 1-1.
2007 - National Final, 5-1.
2008.
2009 - Ncaa, 0-1.
2010 - Sweet-16, 2-1.
2011 - Sweet-16, 2-1.
2012 - Final Four, 4-1.
2013 - Elite-8, 3-1.
2014 - Ncaa, 0-1.
2015 - Ncaa, 1-1.
2016.
2017.

Chris Holtmann:
2018 - Ncaa, 1-1.

Considering Ohio State is one of the cornerstones of the Big Ten, they could use a little more meat on the bone. Between 1971 and 2005, 35 seasons, Ohio State had 0 Final Fours and had only 1 Elite-8, and 10 NCAA wins. Kinda crazy. (Providence in that time period had 2 Final Fours, 1 Elite-8, and 12 NCAA wins).

[MUBoxer]

TL:DR

Ohio State:

Fred Taylor:
1959.
1960 - National Championship, 4-0.
1961 - National Final, 3-1.
1962 - National Final, 3-1.
1963.
1964.
1965.
1966.
1967.
1968 - Final Four, 2-1.
1969.
1970.
1971 - Elite-8, 1-1.
1972.
1973.
1974.
1975.
1976.

Eldon Miller:
1977.
1978.
1979.
1980 - Sweet-16, 1-1..
1981.
1982 - Ncaa, 0-1.
1983 - Sweet-16, 1-1.
1984.
1985 - Ncaa, 1-1.
1986.

Gary Williams:
1987 - Ncaa, 1-1.
1988.
1989.

Randy Ayers:
1990 - Ncaa, 1-1.
1991 - Sweet-16, 2-1.
1992 - Elite-8, 3-1.
1993.
1994.
1995.
1996.
1997.

Jim O'Brien:
1998.
1999 - vacated.
2000 - vacated.
2001 - vacated.
2002 - vacated.
2003.
2004.

Thad Matta:
2005.
2006 - Ncaa, 1-1.
2007 - National Final, 5-1.
2008.
2009 - Ncaa, 0-1.
2010 - Sweet-16, 2-1.
2011 - Sweet-16, 2-1.
2012 - Final Four, 4-1.
2013 - Elite-8, 3-1.
2014 - Ncaa, 0-1.
2015 - Ncaa, 1-1.
2016.
2017.

Chris Holtmann:
2018 - Ncaa, 1-1.

Considering Ohio State is one of the cornerstones of the Big Ten, they could use a little more meat on the bone. Between 1971 and 2005, 35 seasons, Ohio State had 0 Final Fours and had only 1 Elite-8, and 10 NCAA wins. Kinda crazy. (Providence in that time period had 2 Final Fours, 1 Elite-8, and 12 NCAA wins).

How many Final Fours does Villanova have? How many NCAA appearances does SJU have in the 21st century? If you respond 6 and 4 respectively then you can't hold OSU to a different standard regarding vacated seasons.

I agree they could use some more meat on their bones during that time... but you can't pick and choose what years to judge a program by, during the 80s when the BE was killing it Marquette was at it's worst, doesn't change the fact the 70s, 90s and 2000s happened.

[NJRedman]

Those early ACC/B1G games (@Barclays/MSG) always have atrocious attendance.

I don't see how adding an additional day would help when those first round games never get close to selling out. MSG's #1 concern is having people in the seats, so they can buy food and drinks. BE has been delivering on that, and further guarantees they won't move anywhere else.

I actually think adding an additional day would be a bad thing for both parties.

Adding two teams to the Big East wouldn't mean adding an extra day, just adding a morning session to the first day.

[adoraz]

Those early ACC/B1G games (@Barclays/MSG) always have atrocious attendance.

I don't see how adding an additional day would help when those first round games never get close to selling out. MSG's #1 concern is having people in the seats, so they can buy food and drinks. BE has been delivering on that, and further guarantees they won't move anywhere else.

I actually think adding an additional day would be a bad thing for both parties.

Adding two teams to the Big East wouldn't mean adding an extra day, just adding a morning session to the first day.

Yep I know, I meant the argument that the 14/15 team B1G/ACC could offer an advantage by selling an additional day. I don't buy that.

I should've clarified my post though.

[Barley]

And everyone who argued forever that the Big East would need to expand to keep MSG seats full and keep Big Ten out van all say... ummm... never mind.

[kayako]

And everyone who argued forever that the Big East would need to expand to keep MSG seats full and keep Big Ten out van all say... ummm... never mind.

I don't think anyone has said we need to expand just to drive BET demands up. It's still a factor if/when we eventually expand.