End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

The home for Big East hoops

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Postby billyjack » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:39 pm

kmacker69 wrote:"Definitely disagree with the thought that the rich stay rich through their genius, and poor stay poor through their dimwittedness."

First off sorry for the gin soaked over reaction last night. :oops:

Point of clarification:living poor and living rich do not equal dumb or genius, just for the day or the future! (And way over generalized, it's a saying to make people think about how they are spending, not a fundamental truth.) I've know lots of rich dumb people and poor people who were damn smart! I grew up poor as dirt in a town that the factories were all closing down in the midwest... Oh and what we call poor in the USA is wealthy in a whole lot of countries that I have got to visit with a gun strapped to my side or back. ;)

I think it boils down to that there are around 20 basketball and maybe double that for football that have a legitimate shot a a career in the NBA or NFL. Should the NCAA change so that they can start making a living at the expense of the other thousands? The problem is the NBA's not the NCAA's. There is a lot more than just Div1 basketball and football for the NCAA to regulate.

I also think that they should have a better option than overseas, the G league, or college. What that is, is hard to say, and why the NBA hasn't done it, but changing the very fundamental nature of the NCAA's isn't the answer in my opinion. Professional sports needs to fix that part of it instead of mixing the amateur and paid in the NCAA. (MLB seems to do ok with their system.)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen an argument to convince me otherwise. The NCAA has been a stepping stone for millions of kids over the years to get out of poverty, and a few crappy Mid west towns that all the jobs left from... (Even if they don't give you a scholarship at all.)


no worries brother, it's all good
Providence
User avatar
billyjack
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Providence

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Sponsor

Sponsor
 

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Postby Xudash » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:12 pm

cu blujs wrote:That will be the end of college athletics, IMO. It will take less than a decade for state legislatures to start dropping all sports and move to a European model where schools do not sponsor athletic teams and they become club sports. Yes, football makes money, but few universities actually make money off football, and very few are net positive in sports revenue overall. As budgets shrink, there is no way state legislatures in most states will allow universities to start paying large amounts to dozens and dozens of players - plus you aren't just paying football players. Title IX will require equal payment to all female athletes. Few colleges can absorb that costs, and few legislatures will spend tax dollars to subsidize that.


Very good post.

This conversation sometimes take place with too many generalities comprising it. The P5 this and the P5 that. As you so eloquently point out, not even the P5 is a level playing field. Ask Wake Forest if they can truly compete all-in with Ohio State. More to your point, though the accounting has been noted to be creative from school to school, there are a disproportionately low number of schools who actually generate a "profit" from their athletic departments.

Where I disagree is with the notion that the U.S. will go to the European model. I don't see that happening. Sports is in our culture in a big way and university affinities are strongly tied to them in most cases.
XAVIER
Xudash
 
Posts: 2504
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:25 pm

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Postby Savannah Jay » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:35 am

Xudash wrote:
cu blujs wrote:That will be the end of college athletics, IMO. It will take less than a decade for state legislatures to start dropping all sports and move to a European model where schools do not sponsor athletic teams and they become club sports. Yes, football makes money, but few universities actually make money off football, and very few are net positive in sports revenue overall. As budgets shrink, there is no way state legislatures in most states will allow universities to start paying large amounts to dozens and dozens of players - plus you aren't just paying football players. Title IX will require equal payment to all female athletes. Few colleges can absorb that costs, and few legislatures will spend tax dollars to subsidize that.


Very good post.

This conversation sometimes take place with too many generalities comprising it. The P5 this and the P5 that. As you so eloquently point out, not even the P5 is a level playing field. Ask Wake Forest if they can truly compete all-in with Ohio State. More to your point, though the accounting has been noted to be creative from school to school, there are a disproportionately low number of schools who actually generate a "profit" from their athletic departments.

Where I disagree is with the notion that the U.S. will go to the European model. I don't see that happening. Sports is in our culture in a big way and university affinities are strongly tied to them in most cases.


Agree with the idea that the P5 really aren't in danger of "doing their own thing," for the reasons expressed above and because the disparity in revenue among the P5 schools is a huge issue. This article is a little dated, but the essence of the issue it presents is still valid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?utm_term=.2345c5be9746

in 2014, P5 athletic revenues ranged from Oregon ($193MM), Texas ($161MM), Michigan ($158MM), and Alabama ($147MM) on the high end to Rutgers ($40MM), Utah ($46MM), Wash St ($49MM), and Maryland ($55MM), Separating themselves from the rest of the NCAA schools will only serve to heighten the disparity between the haves and the have nots within the P5. If they break from the rest of the NCAA and you are an alum at Wash St, or Iowa State, or Utah, or Rutgers...what hope do you have that your school will ever be relevant athletically? They need Central Florida, Boise St, and Western Michigans of the world to give alumni hope that they can occasionally grab a little national glory or at least get ranked, if not every year, at least occasionally.
Savannah Jay
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:47 am

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Postby Xudash » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:16 pm

Savannah Jay wrote:
Xudash wrote:
cu blujs wrote:That will be the end of college athletics, IMO. It will take less than a decade for state legislatures to start dropping all sports and move to a European model where schools do not sponsor athletic teams and they become club sports. Yes, football makes money, but few universities actually make money off football, and very few are net positive in sports revenue overall. As budgets shrink, there is no way state legislatures in most states will allow universities to start paying large amounts to dozens and dozens of players - plus you aren't just paying football players. Title IX will require equal payment to all female athletes. Few colleges can absorb that costs, and few legislatures will spend tax dollars to subsidize that.


Very good post.

This conversation sometimes take place with too many generalities comprising it. The P5 this and the P5 that. As you so eloquently point out, not even the P5 is a level playing field. Ask Wake Forest if they can truly compete all-in with Ohio State. More to your point, though the accounting has been noted to be creative from school to school, there are a disproportionately low number of schools who actually generate a "profit" from their athletic departments.

Where I disagree is with the notion that the U.S. will go to the European model. I don't see that happening. Sports is in our culture in a big way and university affinities are strongly tied to them in most cases.


Agree with the idea that the P5 really aren't in danger of "doing their own thing," for the reasons expressed above and because the disparity in revenue among the P5 schools is a huge issue. This article is a little dated, but the essence of the issue it presents is still valid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?utm_term=.2345c5be9746

in 2014, P5 athletic revenues ranged from Oregon ($193MM), Texas ($161MM), Michigan ($158MM), and Alabama ($147MM) on the high end to Rutgers ($40MM), Utah ($46MM), Wash St ($49MM), and Maryland ($55MM), Separating themselves from the rest of the NCAA schools will only serve to heighten the disparity between the haves and the have nots within the P5. If they break from the rest of the NCAA and you are an alum at Wash St, or Iowa State, or Utah, or Rutgers...what hope do you have that your school will ever be relevant athletically? They need Central Florida, Boise St, and Western Michigans of the world to give alumni hope that they can occasionally grab a little national glory or at least get ranked, if not every year, at least occasionally.


The article may be dated, but it provides one absolutely true fact that hasn't changed: the P5 solve for football, period. More to the point, they've already solved for it as a result of putting in the most recent playoff structure to replace the BCS format:

The sports programs in these five conferences — the Big Ten, Big 12, Pacific-12, Southeastern Conference and Atlantic Coast Conference — are the wealthiest in the country, and they are wealthy because of football.

Men’s basketball is also a money-maker, but arenas are smaller than football stadiums, limiting ticket income, and the sport’s largest television deal is managed more socialistically. The NCAA controls television rights for the wildly popular March tournament, and every year divies up nearly $800 million among hundreds of schools.

Football — where championship television rights belong to the conferences — separates Power Five schools from everyone else. ESPN is in the midst of a 12-year, $7.3 billion contract to televise the College Football Playoff that will primarily benefit the Power Five. Three of the conferences have launched their own television networks, creating additional revenue streams.


They don't need to split because of anything having to do with football, including paying players, should it come to that.

They certainly aren't going to destroy March Madness, given that they don't have to do that in order to achieve something on the football side.
XAVIER
Xudash
 
Posts: 2504
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:25 pm

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Postby MarquetteRustler » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:07 pm

The fact that the conferences don't own the TV rights to March Madness or the CFP makes it more likely the power 5 will split in my opinion.
MarquetteRustler
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:58 am

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Postby Savannah Jay » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:30 pm

MarquetteRustler wrote:The fact that the conferences don't own the TV rights to March Madness or the CFP makes it more likely the power 5 will split in my opinion.


The P5 clearly want a bigger piece of the money pie but I think they have to walk a fine line between wrangling more of the pie and cutting off their nose to spite their face. Having their own basketball tournament that only includes their 65 schools won't have the same value as the current deal. I would suggest getting all of the TV revenue from their own tournament would ultimately be less $$$ to those schools than the chunk of March Madness they get now simply because their exclusive tourney would have substantially less value/earning power. Casual fans aren't going to flock to the TV to watch Wake Forest and Nebraska play in a tournament, both of whom probably have very mediocre records. IMO, the popularity of this tournament exploded because of Richmond, and Hampton, and Bucknell, and UNI, etc. upsetting the household names. If you remove that dynamic, you remove a significant amount of interest.

I could see the football landscape changing some...and maybe it should. Maybe just have all of the $100MM athletic departments have their own league or something. That's substantially fewer than 65 teams and, realistically, the bottom half of that spending spectrum has very little chance of a conference championship and virtually no chance of a natty in football.
Savannah Jay
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:47 am

Re: End of Amateurism and P5 Conferences Split from NCAA

Postby kayako » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:44 am

Savannah Jay wrote:The P5 clearly want a bigger piece of the money pie but I think they have to walk a fine line between wrangling more of the pie and cutting off their nose to spite their face.


Agreed. I chuckle every time someone mentions the P5 wanting to separate from other conferences. Current NCAA tournament deal with CBS/Turner goes to 2032. Going semi-pro without NCAA support is like asking the NBA to destroy it with better managed G League.
supernova
User avatar
kayako
 
Posts: 3792
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:22 am

Previous

Return to Big East basketball message board

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests