Welcome to The Holy Land of Hoops

As the Big East charts its course for the future, I hope that vision evolves.
With Wichita State off the market, Dayton and VCU are two prominent possibilities for future growth and frankly I'd lean more toward VCU.
They'd give Georgetown a regional foil and they have done a great job of promoting a culture, which extends to their current coach who cut his teeth there.
The greatness of the Big East brand was born out of that natural struggle between the privates and the publics. We're getting too far away from that for my liking.
Case in point: Wichita State. They would have made a great foil for Creighton. In the Big East, those two programs would have made each other better. However, they are off the board now, soon to be locked up be a steep exit fee.
It seems like there is a strand of anti-publics emanating throughout these threads, pertaining to expansion, and I'm not seeing it. Every good conference in the country makes a point to have that signature 'private' school in their ranks. Why do you think that is? Would the SEC be better if they kicked out Vandy and added a public? What would they gain by that?
There is a lot of crossing of streams in this discussion. Many promote UConn, even though they are public and have football, on one hand, and then - otoh - they say they want to never let any other public OR football playing member in the conference.
VCU doesn't even have fbs football, and they're considered behind UConn in the pecking order. That makes absolutely no sense. Let's be honest with ourselves, UConn is not coming (especially after todays upcoming events), so why waste the bandwidth?
Is Wichita State a trial run for the AAC, setting the table for VCU and Dayton later? Would they consider Dayton, being that they don't resemble most of the membership? I believe they would. They would be foolish not to.
So, why is that same foolishness promoted around here. As an original Big East fan, I miss Syracuse, Pitt, UConn, Louisville, and even West Virginia. Outside of having football, I thought they were perfect conference mates for schools like St. Johns, Villanova, Providence, etc. It's our differences that fueled our competition.
Frankly, it feels weird not having a taste of it.
Would VCU be the same? No. But, I'd enjoy playing them as much as most. This is still a very new conference. I'm still getting used to Creighton, Butler, and Xavier. Maybe VCU could be the token Public, like Vandy is the SEC's token Private.
My point is its good to have a blend. If this conference does expand, I think its extremely weird to narrow the pool with a religious litmus test. I can see both the AAC and Big East considering both VCU and Dayton for expansion in the future. It is my opinion that the conference who asks second is going to be very sorry.
Wichita State is a Top 5 team next year. I will be following their program with intrigue, as they play the UConns, Cincinattis, SMUs, etc. I'll also be following VCU as they play... Dayton. Just as I'll be following the 15 team ACC, with Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, etc, knowing that one day the Big East will need to grow out of necessity someday, and that Private-Public dynamic will be a menu offering that must be considered to get some of what was lost back.

The BE chose to have 10 teams instead of 12. They wanted the Round Robin which is now the envy of all the other conferences. Very good teams. Play everybody twice. Get multiple teams in the Dance every year. Seems to be working out quite well. No need to expand.

BEXU wrote:The BE chose to have 10 teams instead of 12. They wanted the Round Robin which is now the envy of all the other conferences. Very good teams. Play everybody twice. Get multiple teams in the Dance every year. Seems to be working out quite well. No need to expand.

But IF the Big East ever expands, there shouldn't be a religious litmus test.

When you can get a Top 10 team that's close to your furthest member, its probably a good idea, imo. 11 lends itself to good scheduling as well.

Yawn. This is tired. VCU isn't getting added today, tomorrow, or anytime in the near future. No only do they not fit the profile of the rest of the league, but I can make a pretty good argument that they are an average program whose best days are long past.

The Big East is perfect as currently constructed. Well, except for maybe DePaul… Ha ha. I can say that because I'm a fan. Hoping McCormick Place helps turn us around.

LabRatScott wrote:Yawn. This is tired. VCU isn't getting added today, tomorrow, or anytime in the near future. No only do they not fit the profile of the rest of the league, but I can make a pretty good argument that they are an average program whose best days are long past.

The Big East is perfect as currently constructed. Well, except for maybe DePaul… Ha ha. I can say that because I'm a fan. Hoping McCormick Place helps turn us around.

VCU is still riding the wave of one Final Four run in a season where they didn't even deserve to be in the tournament in the first place. Couple that with there being no way Georgetown approves, and why bother? Personally, I think a shared focus and common set of goals has been a good thing for the league. No need to add anyone, and I wouldn't even get rid of DePaul. Someone's got to lose...

LabRatScott wrote:Yawn. This is tired. VCU isn't getting added today, tomorrow, or anytime in the near future. No only do they not fit the profile of the rest of the league, but I can make a pretty good argument that they are an average program whose best days are long past.

This would take some serious leaps in logic to argue this point.

VCU has been on the verge of having two top 25 classes in the last three years, only to see their coaches leave for the lure of the P5 both times. The newest hire is likely (but not guaranteed, of course) to stick around a little longer because of his deep ties to the Richmond area. I think lack of continuity in the past 4 years is the biggest thing that's held VCU back, but that could be changing in the near future.

For those who don't know, new VCU coach Mike Rhoades went to school at D3 Randolph Macon (which is in Ashland, just north of the city of Richmond). He was the D3 national player of the year while playing there, then went on to become an assistant and later head coach for 10 years at his alma mater before being hired as an assistant at VCU under Shaka Smart. If there's anybody who's likely to have a long tenure at VCU, it's this guy. His wife is from the area, his kids were all born in Richmond, and he had lived there for almost 20 years before taking the head coaching job at Rice.

VCU has committed the necessary resources to basketball to be a player for a long time. In a day & age where investment in basketball (and associated facilities) is a good indicator of long-term success, VCU clearly fits the bill.

I'm sure your argument would hinge on NCAA Tournament success, which is understandable, but I think it's a smaller piece of the puzzle than some would suggest.

Crawfish, a couple of points:

Wichita State's academics are awful. Like they are really, really terrible. If they weren't good at basketball, they would not even be considered for partial membership in the AAC. Tulane, for whatever reason, must be swallowing a lot of pride in order to accept them into the American today. UConn, I would assume, would also be gagging at allowing such a low regarded academic program into their circle.

VCU's academics are much, much better than Wichita State's. However, they were not only disregarded when reorganizing the league because they were a public. They also were dismissed by Georgetown due to their proximity. Their basketball program, which has been invested heavily in and strongly supported, is still regarded as a strong mid-major. They had one deep run a few years ago, but - historically - nothing major. However, they can continue building and force the American's (or any other non-FBS conference) hand if they continue to make the tournament every year in the A-10.

The Public/Private set-up in the old Big East wasn't created out of desire, it was created out of necessity. In order to, temporarily, have the absolute best basketball conference in the country, both sides had to compromise with institutional fit in order to gain more value and competition. VCU is not a Syracuse, a UConn, a Pittsburgh, a Louisville, a West Virginia, etc. If VCU did carry the same prestige and program history, that would be a different story - but they don't.

If, by some surreal happenstance (one where the AAC's new TV deal is marketed at a similar value as its current one - around $2 million), and UConn decides to cut the cord and go Independent in FBS, and move Olympics to the Big East, then - and only then - could I see a VCU addition to compliment the UConn affiliation. I'm not saying VCU will never be added to the Big East, but I cannot safely predict that they will not be added as the only public school. There would need to be one another "partner" for them so as they would not be left out voting wise.

Finally, there is a reason the C7 sought out and invited Butler, Creighton and Xavier. It was bigger than just basketball. It was about institutional fit and location as well. Richmond, while a solid market, is not a major media market in a big metropolitan city. IMO, VCU's greatest chance for Big East inclusion was when we reorganized. The fact we took Butler, Creighton, and Xavier, which all are much further away from the hub in NYC, and which VCU is much closer to, should have been a strong indicator than VCU is not a legitimate candidate.

LabRatScott wrote:Yawn. This is tired. I can make a pretty good argument that they are an average program whose best days are long past.

Average???

- 7 straight trips to the tournament
- 7 tournament wins in the past 7 years
- 8 tournament bids in the last 9 years
- 10 tournament bids in the last 14 years
- 7 conference championships in the past 14 years
- annually sell out their home arena for the season

Sure, that's average. Doesn't every program do that?

GoldenWarrior11 wrote:Crawfish, a couple of points:

Wichita State's academics are awful. Like they are really, really terrible. If they weren't good at basketball, they would not even be considered for partial membership in the AAC. Tulane, for whatever reason, must be swallowing a lot of pride in order to accept them into the American today. UConn, I would assume, would also be gagging at allowing such a low regarded academic program into their circle.

Great points.

VCU's academics are much, much better than Wichita State's. However, they were not only disregarded when reorganizing the league because they were a public. They also were dismissed by Georgetown due to their proximity.

This argument has been advanced before no I've never understood it - especially since the GU president lobbied for U of Richmond in the exact same location. VCU is not George Mason in terms of proximity to Georgetown. Here are some current distances separating Big East members as well as VCU. I ignored the obvious SJU-SHU proximity. VCU-Georgetown is right in the middle of this list.

Georgetown-VCU = 109 miles apart
Georgetown-Villanova = 139 miles apart
Villanova -Seton Hall = 91 miles apart
Marquette-DePaul = 93 miles apart
Xavier-Butler = 145 miles apart

Their basketball program, which has been invested heavily in and strongly supported, is still regarded as a strong mid-major. They had one deep run a few years ago, but - historically - nothing major. However, they can continue building and force the American's (or any other non-FBS conference) hand if they continue to make the tournament every year in the A-10.

The Public/Private set-up in the old Big East wasn't created out of desire, it was created out of necessity.

I didn't see it that way at the time, but you may be right. Pitt was added to block Penn State from convincing Syracuse and BC to leave for an all sports conference. Necessity? Maybe. Miami was added 5 years later to help with footbLl scheduling issue. Not necessity. Big East Football was created several years later and football members were added for all sports over the next decade. Necessity? Not for the C7.

In order to, temporarily, have the absolute best basketball conference in the country, both sides had to compromise with institutional fit in order to gain more value and competition.

It was all about football.

VCU is not a Syracuse, a UConn, a Pittsburgh,

Neither were those guys when they joined.

a Louisville, a West Virginia, etc. If VCU did carry the same prestige and program history, that would be a different story - but they don't.

If, by some surreal happenstance (one where the AAC's new TV deal is marketed at a similar value as its current one - around $2 million), and UConn decides to cut the cord and go Independent in FBS, and move Olympics to the Big East, then - and only then - could I see a VCU addition to compliment the UConn affiliation. I'm not saying VCU will never be added to the Big East, but I cannot safely predict that they will not be added as the only public school. There would need to be one another "partner" for them so as they would not be left out voting wise.

Finally, there is a reason the C7 sought out and invited Butler, Creighton and Xavier. It was bigger than just basketball. It was about institutional fit and location as well. Richmond, while a solid market, is not a major media market in a big metropolitan city.

This is another point I've never understood. VCU is not a Richmond commuter school. It's a major research university which draws students from all over a state of 8 million and has the biggest enrollment in the state. I think of the entire state as it's market just as all of CT is for UConn, or all of PA is for Penn State, or other state universities. On the one hand, the objection to VCU is that it overlaps Georgetown more than 100 miles away, but when it comes to market, they're restricted to Richmond?

IMO, VCU's greatest chance for Big East inclusion was when we reorganized. The fact we took Butler, Creighton, and Xavier, which all are much further away from the hub in NYC, and which VCU is much closer to, should have been a strong indicator than VCU is not a legitimate candidate.

Many good points otherwise.

Bill Marsh wrote:

LabRatScott wrote:Yawn. This is tired. I can make a pretty good argument that they are an average program whose best days are long past.

Average???

- 7 straight trips to the tournament
- 7 tournament wins in the past 7 years
- 8 tournament bids in the last 9 years
- 10 tournament bids in the last 14 years
- 7 conference championships in the past 14 years
- annually sell out their home arena for the season

Sure, that's average. Doesn't every program do that?

I agree, Bill. I'd still rate our next potential new members of the Big East in the following order of preference (with caveats described):
1) UConn (with a huge buy-out clause and, preferably, football reduced to the FBS-level although Independent or non-power-5 membership would be OK)
1a) VCU (with a buy-out at least equal to that of our current members and a pledge never to establish a football program above the FBS-level)
2) SLU (following at least 3 years of top-5 finishes in the A-10 and average home attendance figures in excess of 7,000 --- simply to prove the Bills can deliver the St. Louis media market; a promise never to establish a football program above the FBS-level)
3) UD (prove that Archie Miller wasn't a fluke by continued success in the A-10 or AAC; no football above the FBS-level) --- I'll still hold my nose if they gain membership to the Big East because I'd prefer any of the above for expansion of our media base which UD would not provide to the same extent as the others.