How we beat the Blue Bloods...

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How we beat the Blue Bloods...

Postby GumbyDamnit! » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:37 am

Experience and development.

When this conference started many (hater) posters predicted that the gap between the FB P5 programs--who could pull in the best H.S. players every year--and the Big East would widen. "The BE can't compete long term," the naysayers said.

I think many coaches are starting to see how to build winning teams for March. Step 1: make sure you have older players who can physically impose their will and have the mental toughness developed over several years of being in the same system. Step 2: Build a program culture and demand that all players to buy into it.

Last year's FF - Older, experienced teams. Only one kid in the FF was a one and done.
This year's FF - Older, experienced teams. Don't think there is one kid, on any of these teams, who is one and done.

Is getting top end talent Top 20 talent a bad thing? Certainly not. But coaches should use it to fill short term gaps or help push a team over the hump. The goal should be to recruit solid/balanced classes and create a culture that stresses hard work and team. Get guys that aren't expecting to step on the floor and lead the team in scoring in year one solely because they think they are pros in waiting. Get high character guys--Delagado, Hart, Chrabacz, Blueitt--that have talent but aren't expecting to leave after a year. Surround them with a handful of other kids who want to play the game like they do. This is the recipe IMO. Develop your stars, don't just pluck them off a McD's AA tree.

I am very encouraged at what we are building. We've got great BB traditions already. We've got excellent coaches just entering their prime. We've got players who are learning how to play the game the right way. Future for the conference is very bright.
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How we beat the Blue Bloods...

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Re: How we beat the Blue Bloods...

Postby BEhomer » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:01 pm

Kentucky and Duke win those two championships mostly with one and dones and people automatically think that's going to happen every year. well it's looking more and more like those were the exceptions and not the norm. You still need special players like Anthony Davis and MKG. Duke doesn't win that championship without the bench heroics from Grayson Allen.

You need good players to win period. in those years, they happened to be one and dones.

They can trot out high school all star team all they want. I like my chances with Brunson's and Bluiett's of the world.
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Re: How we beat the Blue Bloods...

Postby gtmoBlue » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:30 pm

GumbyDamnit! wrote:Experience and development.

When this conference started many (hater) posters predicted that the gap between the FB P5 programs--who could pull in the best H.S. players every year--and the Big East would widen. "The BE can't compete long term," the naysayers said.

I think many coaches are starting to see how to build winning teams for March. Step 1: make sure you have older players who can physically impose their will and have the mental toughness developed over several years of being in the same system. Step 2: Build a program culture and demand that all players to buy into it.

Last year's FF - Older, experienced teams. Only one kid in the FF was a one and done.
This year's FF - Older, experienced teams. Don't think there is one kid, on any of these teams, who is one and done.

Is getting top end talent Top 20 talent a bad thing? Certainly not. But coaches should use it to fill short term gaps or help push a team over the hump. The goal should be to recruit solid/balanced classes and create a culture that stresses hard work and team. Get guys that aren't expecting to step on the floor and lead the team in scoring in year one solely because they think they are pros in waiting. Get high character guys--Delagado, Hart, Chrabacz, Blueitt--that have talent but aren't expecting to leave after a year. Surround them with a handful of other kids who want to play the game like they do. This is the recipe IMO. Develop your stars, don't just pluck them off a McD's AA tree.

I am very encouraged at what we are building. We've got great BB traditions already. We've got excellent coaches just entering their prime. We've got players who are learning how to play the game the right way. Future for the conference is very bright.


BEHomer wrote:They can trot out high school all star team all they want. I like my chances with Brunson's and Bluiett's of the world.
Brunson is "1 of them McD/Jordan AA's" you are criticising.


Nice wholesome, motivatin', and standup speech Gumby. I am touched and gladdened by this genuine outpouring of Grade A sportmanship, and hopefully all our brethren will take such proclamations to heart.

However, surely you don't expect such a speech to put the brakes on ol' Steverrrr do ya? He would merely shift his argument a bit and continue on his trollful ways.

I do differ a bit though with your noble sentiments. Players with program buy-in, culture, hard work, who are learning and playing the game "the right way". Sounds suspiciously "union" to me.

Mixing in a sprinkling of AA kids (1 to 2) with the generic Creighton, Butler ilk of "program developed" 3rd-5th year guys - program guys, character guys, brought along the right way - doesn't necessarily translate into winning nor competing with the likes of Kentucky, Duke, UCLA, and Nof Carolina. Yes, such a mixture can generally win to-a-point, and on a given year compete with the elites (Butler has shown us that on a few seasons, Xavier this season). Creighton imploded with Patton, Watson and a program cast of players. Xavier had to rise Phoenix-like in the dance after a similar fate as Creighton.

What you advocate is an extreme juggling/balancing act for programs and coaches. We all know the Bottomline: Winning. For many, winning at all costs, at any cost. Your prescription is great for Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga...as they have had to assemble their annual cast of characters often haphazardly, oft piecemeal, and such universities have developed their juggling and balancing acts to a high art form. The Butler Way and Creighton's Family ain't for everyone. Program cultures form in many forms n fashions. The Johnnies singin' Kumbaya and roastin' S'mores around the vacant lot fire barrel - naw...I ain't buyin' it!

To ask such a performance from teams who have ALWAYS been amongst the Haves: Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul,St. Johns; and the BE top tier teams? Naw...I ain't seein' it Gumby. Programs buy into their history, traditions, ethos, and mythos. To ask such longstanding BE programs & teams to suddenly begin "looking at the man in the mirror, and asking him to change his ways" (M. Jackson); is akin to asking the tiger to change his stripes, the IRS to quit collecting taxes, the church to abandon the Rapture speeches - it ain't happening.

Great sentiment, good prescription, and all. It's just "Too damned hard" Gumby, too damned hard for most schools to do. Thanks though, as you allowed me to rant a bit.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi
"Top tier teams rarely have true "down" years and find a way to stay relevant every year." - Adoraz

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Re: How we beat the Blue Bloods...

Postby GumbyDamnit! » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:02 pm

Not saying it's easy GTMO, just that it is prescription to counter the teams--UK, Duke, Zona, KU--that can trot out 5 star players from the depths of their bench. Gonzaga - older, developed stars leading that team. South Carolina--AA senior and tough system defense. UNC: returned 6-7 returning upper class men. Oregon: def older and experienced. Nova last year. OKL last year. UNC last year.

And lest ye forget that CU's best shot at a FF was prior to a star Sr PG blowing out his knee. The Jays this year fit my description: upper class laden with a Sr star and some quality youth sprinkled in. So no need to sing Kumbaya but I simply think that if we intend to be the top conference we need to worry less about the recruiting class rank and more about recruits that are program fits. And for every Brunson I'll raise you a Bridges, DiVincenzo and Hart. Each modestly ranked coming out of HS. But simply the right fit for the program, who stick around 4 years and become as good if not better than the one and dones.

Baldwin, Ponds, Howard, DiVincenzo, Diallo, TJ and QG at X. Good players now but will all be monsters when they are Jr's and Sr's. Sprinkle in some A+ transfers (as the BE has done very well) and a stud frosh every now and again and you've got a team that can compete with anyone.
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Re: How we beat the Blue Bloods...

Postby mel ott » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:43 pm

GumbyDamnit! wrote:Not saying it's easy GTMO, just that it is prescription to counter the teams--UK, Duke, Zona, KU--that can trot out 5 star players from the depths of their bench. Gonzaga - older, developed stars leading that team. South Carolina--AA senior and tough system defense. UNC: returned 6-7 returning upper class men. Oregon: def older and experienced. Nova last year. OKL last year. UNC last year.

And lest ye forget that CU's best shot at a FF was prior to a star Sr PG blowing out his knee. The Jays this year fit my description: upper class laden with a Sr star and some quality youth sprinkled in. So no need to sing Kumbaya but I simply think that if we intend to be the top conference we need to worry less about the recruiting class rank and more about recruits that are program fits. And for every Brunson I'll raise you a Bridges, DiVincenzo and Hart. Each modestly ranked coming out of HS. But simply the right fit for the program, who stick around 4 years and become as good if not better than the one and dones.

Baldwin, Ponds, Howard, DiVincenzo, Diallo, TJ and QG at X. Good players now but will all be monsters when they are Jr's and Sr's. Sprinkle in some A+ transfers (as the BE has done very well) and a stud frosh every now and again and you've got a team that can compete with anyone.


Totally agree. That's great for two reasons- 1) that is generally who the Big East teams are, and 2) it seems to be quite effective come tournie time.
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