Accountability at St. John's

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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby Jet915 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:24 am

Hooper is currently hitting the depressive stage of his SJU bipolar disorder....
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:08 pm

This young boy has no idea what being a suffering SJU fan actually means. He mentions he had to sit through the Lavin years and now the Mullin regime. Yeah, I go back to Jarvis so keep quiet with your temper tantrum. I've seen the entire team kicked out of school and watch us play with a bunch of walk ons, kids who I played intramural against were playing UConn, GTown and Syracuse at MSG.

You are asking the new AD who is less than a month in his new role to fire Chris Mullin half way through his second year because YOU think he stinks. Thats not accountability thats emotion. If you think this team would be that much better this year than you don't know much about basketball. To me if everything broke just right and we gelled early at best we'd finish in 6th place and get an NIT birth. That was the BEST CASE SCENARIO!

No go take some provac and leave the rest of us alone.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby Fieldhouse Flyer » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:12 pm

DudeAnon wrote:
Its year 2 of a complete rebuild. Patience.

Good advice DudeAnon - I agree. Unfortunately for basketball fans, it takes 4 or 5 seasons before you know if a new head coach has the right stuff.

Jay Wright
Season Team Overall (Conference) Standing Postseason

2001–02 Villanova 19–13 (7–9) 5th NIT Quarterfinals
2002–03 Villanova 15–16 (8–8) T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 Villanova 18–17 (6–10) 11th NIT Quarterfinals
2004–05 Villanova 24–8 (11–5) T–3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06 Villanova 28–5 (14–2) T–1st NCAA Elite Eight

In Jay Wright's third season at Villanova, the Wildcats finished in 11th place in the Big East. You know the rest.

Archie Miller
Season Team Overall (Conference) Standing Postseason

2011–12 Dayton 20–13 (9–7) 5th NIT First Round
2012–13 Dayton 17–14 (7–9) 11th
2013–14 Dayton 26–11 (10–6) T–5th NCAA Elite Eight
2014–15 Dayton 27–9 (13–5) T–2nd NCAA Round of 32
2015–16 Dayton 25–8 (14–4) T–1st NCAA Round of 64

In Archie Miller's second season at Dayton, the Flyers finished in 11th place in the Atlantic 10.

Jim Crews
Season Team Overall (Conference) Standing Postseason

2012–13 Saint Louis 28–7 (13–3) 1st NCAA Third Round
2013–14 Saint Louis 27–7 (13–3) 1st NCAA Third Round
2014–15 Saint Louis 11–21 (3–15) 14th
2015–16 Saint Louis 11–21 (5–13) T–12th

In each of Jim Crews first two seasons at Saint Louis, he received the Atlantic 10 Coach of the Year award (for sitting on the bench and watching players recruited and trained by Rick Majerus do their thing). Two years later, he was unemployed.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby Hall2012 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:18 pm

SJHooper wrote:
Hall2012 wrote:Hooper, for your own sanity you need to try to avoid the extreme highs and lows of your emotions regarding this St. John's team. After a bad loss, the team is a disaster and everyone needs to be fired. After a big win, such as Butler, the team turned a corner and they're gonna finish in the top half of the conference. Fact of the matter is that neither of those are true. Pretty much every relevant player on your team this year is a freshman (and far from Kentucky-type freshmen) and the results you're seeing this year (as many have said here) are pretty much exactly what should be expected - a lot of ups and downs, but likely more downs. The Johnnies are likely going to get run out of the gym a few more times this year. They're also likely to get another big upset win or 2. I think there's a pretty decent chance St. John's will upset Seton Hall this year. If the SJU home game was at Carnesecca instead of MSG, I'd actually be expecting a loss.

Things will get better. Last year was just a wasted season, this year is the start of the rebuild. They're showing flashes of potential but tons of inconsistency. The consistency comes with experience, of which your coach and players currently have none. To expect Mullin (who came into the job with zero head coaching experience at any level) to get into the postseason in his first few years is not realistic. The SJU brass certainly knew this and (as frustrating as it is for the fans) likely view the Mullin era as a long term rebuilding process rather than the quick fix they attempted with Lavin.

Seton Hall did the same thing with Kevin Willard. After the failed Bobby G quick fix that buried the program in PR nightmares, the Pirates turned to Willard for a slow methodical rebuild. The first 5 years brought nothing but a single NIT birth and fans were beyond frustrated, but it paid off in year 6 with a Big East Championship. Now in year 7 they have a realistic chance to defend that title and barring a mass exodus of players leaving early, they should be among the favorites again in year 8. So as much as you don't want to hear "trust the process," it's all you can do.


But that's just the thing...it's not emotion...it's factual. That was the point of this thread. Emotions aside, what are the results so far? Are they what we expected? So far the objective answer to that is not even close. This season has turned into the same feel as last year. A big upset win or two, a handful of games over at halftime, and plenty of 20 pt blowout losses. Under Willard, SHU has never lost more than 13 games. At this point, we would be lucky to win 13. That would mean we somehow get 5 more wins which is very unlikely. Willard won 21 games his 2nd season. This flies in the face of people who say it's impossible to get instant results. I'm sure you will say he did not lose everyone and start from scratch like Mullin did, but the fact of the matter is that Willard's teams at least showed real promise. There's a difference between being a 15-17 win mediocre team and a 8-10 win bottom-feeder. The youth excuse was never valid and if you still think so, did you watch our game vs. PSU who had players just as young and inexperienced? They ran us out of the gym. Youth may be a contributing factor, but it's definitely not the main issue. This mindset again implies that you can only expect teams to be good once every 4 years. That's on pace for 3 berths every 12 years which is very bad. There are tons of coaches out there who consistently win with youth, graduating players, players leaving for the draft or overseas, transfers, JUCO's, 3 star recruits, injuries, etc. No one said it's easy, but many coaches do this. I'm not asking to be a top 10 team, I'm asking to beat teams like Delaware State...some of the absolute worst teams in the country. I'm asking us to play some semblance of a defense. I'm asking us to recruit BIG men and not stick men. It's no longer early in the season, so throw out that excuse too. In a few more weeks, the bracketology will begin to fire up nationally. Yes, Mullin is new to coaching I get it. But that doesn't mean there are zero expectations. The guy is an NBA HOFer, you can't tell me he doesn't know the game of basketball in and out. The problem is that for whatever reason he doesn't teach well if at all. The only things I hear when he is mic'd up are things like "We got this", "Keep banging", etc. That is very concerning. When you listen to him talking to the team and you think to yourself, "hey, I can do that" it doesn't reflect well. The energy level is just very low with the staff except St. Jean. As a head coach it's a basic concept to understand that you should be up at all times running up and down the sidelines, yelling out formations, what players to clue in on, preach fundamentals, etc. Did you see McDermott against us? That's a head coach. I don't see any other coaches sitting down drinking Perrier while we go up in flames. Yes he's a new coach. But he has tons of experience in basketball and it's fair to say that we should still expect better. It really makes you wonder if he even says anything when a guy like Yakwe (hasn't hit a shot all year it seems) is shooting from 12 feet out. They just keep doing it so I have to assume he isn't...or he doesn't care. If it were me, I would take Yakwe out after that and tell him to play within himself...that's not who he is...he's there to rebound, dunk, or lay it up. If he finds himself with the ball 12 feet from the basket, not only would I get in the ear of whoever passed to him, but I would tell the team he's not to get the ball unless he's already in position to lay it up or dunk without dribbling.


I will say, as I believe I have before, I think Mullin was a bad hire. He could very well be a great coach one day, but being a head coach Big East isn't the place to take your first coaching job. It's like a brokerage firm throwing an intern on to the NYSE trading floor on his first day. Mullin would have been much better off taking a job in the MAAC or NEC to get some experience without the weight of the world on his shoulders. Like you said, he obviously knows basketball inside an out, but teaching is a skill that needs to be developed. Drawing up the right play is a skill that needs to be developed. Thinking as a coach is not the same as thinking as a player, and he's trying to learn the job in the most high-pressure situation possible.

All that being said, he's here now and I think he should be given a fair chance. I think it's too early to judge him on results, I'm mostly interested in seeing improvement and this team does look more capable than last year's. I know I started the Willard comparison's to try to explain the long term process of the rebuild, but it's not a great comparison because Willard was far more experienced. He had 3 years of head coaching experience a Iona in the MAAC (which isn't a ton) in which he turned a 2-28 into a 21-10 team. Prior to that, he had a lot of experience as an assistant to Rick Pitino at both Louisville and the Boston Celtics. And with his move to Seton Hall, he did inherit a lot of talent from Bobby Gonzalez. Jordan Theodore, Herb Pope, Jeremy Hazell, and Fuquan Edwin to be specific, as well as some decent role players. A lot of people think that if Bobby stayed, the Pirates would have been an NCAA team those 2 years. Willard inherited a much better on court situation, but a perception disaster which made early recruiting very difficult for him. That's why you see a decent 11-12 season on his resume. As for not losing more than 13 games, I'm not sure where you see that. Last season was the only one under Willard in which they lost fewer than 13 games.

But back to Mullin. He's here, whether he should be or not, and in fairness to him I think expectations need to be tempered at first, at least in regard to wins and losses. If the SJU administration wants him to succeed, they need to be patient with him. If they can't do that and want fast results, fire him now and beg Jim Calhoun to come out of retirement.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby SJHooper » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:18 pm

NJRedman wrote:This young boy has no idea what being a suffering SJU fan actually means. He mentions he had to sit through the Lavin years and now the Mullin regime. Yeah, I go back to Jarvis so keep quiet with your temper tantrum. I've seen the entire team kicked out of school and watch us play with a bunch of walk ons, kids who I played intramural against were playing UConn, GTown and Syracuse at MSG.

You are asking the new AD who is less than a month in his new role to fire Chris Mullin half way through his second year because YOU think he stinks. Thats not accountability thats emotion. If you think this team would be that much better this year than you don't know much about basketball. To me if everything broke just right and we gelled early at best we'd finish in 6th place and get an NIT birth. That was the BEST CASE SCENARIO!

No go take some provac and leave the rest of us alone.


You are reading things that aren't there. I never said I asked the AD to fire Mullin. I asked him to make sure there are actual expectations and that he holds coaches accountable for the product on the court. I don't know much about basketball for saying we should have won 15 games this year? There were basketball beat writers all over the country talking about how improved we would be. I believe we even made the CBS Sports list for "Most Improved Teams". So I guess they don't know much about basketball either, even though it's their job. Pardon me, but doesn't "improved" mean better? Was your idea of "better" 2 big east wins rather than 1? If you want to be technical, yes that's improvement but by your standard it's not even significant. I never demanded an NIT berth or 6th place...all I asked is for 15 wins. Now even for next year no one would bet good money on that happening. By the way, it's "Prozac" and you are not a psychologist. You just play one on the internet. If you are going to go for the personal attacks, at least get it right.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby billyjack » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:27 pm

Bill Marsh wrote:
DudeAnon wrote:Just think about it relative to the teams you are playing. St. John's has a brand new head coach with almost completely new players. You are competing against programs who have long tenured coaches with a proven formula of winning. It will take time for Mullin to develop the same thing. So you can bitch in 3 years, but before that you are just critiquing the process before its done.


A lot of Fleetwood Mac fans at St John's. They believe in miracles.


Bill, I think you mean Jefferson Starship...!
:)
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:07 pm

SJHooper wrote:
NJRedman wrote:This young boy has no idea what being a suffering SJU fan actually means. He mentions he had to sit through the Lavin years and now the Mullin regime. Yeah, I go back to Jarvis so keep quiet with your temper tantrum. I've seen the entire team kicked out of school and watch us play with a bunch of walk ons, kids who I played intramural against were playing UConn, GTown and Syracuse at MSG.

You are asking the new AD who is less than a month in his new role to fire Chris Mullin half way through his second year because YOU think he stinks. Thats not accountability thats emotion. If you think this team would be that much better this year than you don't know much about basketball. To me if everything broke just right and we gelled early at best we'd finish in 6th place and get an NIT birth. That was the BEST CASE SCENARIO!

No go take some provac and leave the rest of us alone.


You are reading things that aren't there. I never said I asked the AD to fire Mullin. I asked him to make sure there are actual expectations and that he holds coaches accountable for the product on the court. I don't know much about basketball for saying we should have won 15 games this year? There were basketball beat writers all over the country talking about how improved we would be. I believe we even made the CBS Sports list for "Most Improved Teams". So I guess they don't know much about basketball either, even though it's their job. Pardon me, but doesn't "improved" mean better? Was your idea of "better" 2 big east wins rather than 1? If you want to be technical, yes that's improvement but by your standard it's not even significant. I never demanded an NIT berth or 6th place...all I asked is for 15 wins. Now even for next year no one would bet good money on that happening. By the way, it's "Prozac" and you are not a psychologist. You just play one on the internet. If you are going to go for the personal attacks, at least get it right.


Oh i'm sorry, I don't know what pills you have to take on a daily basis and what your psychologist tells you.

Improved doesn't always mean wins and loses. They picked us to be one of the most improved teams because we were one of the absolute worst teams last year. Guess what junior? We are much more improved from last year! If you don't think we are then you need to stop watching ebcause nothing will ever be good enough for you. You don't know anything about basketball and you clearly don't know how a program is run. Go cry somewhere else because your schtick here is getting really old and boring.

You complain we only have 2 Big East wins but we've only played 5 Big East games! Get over yourself already.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:07 pm

billyjack wrote:
Bill Marsh wrote:
DudeAnon wrote:Just think about it relative to the teams you are playing. St. John's has a brand new head coach with almost completely new players. You are competing against programs who have long tenured coaches with a proven formula of winning. It will take time for Mullin to develop the same thing. So you can bitch in 3 years, but before that you are just critiquing the process before its done.


A lot of Fleetwood Mac fans at St John's. They believe in miracles.


Bill, I think you mean Jefferson Starship...!
:)


Hooper needs to get back on his Jefferson Starship! haha
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby xusandy » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:08 pm

Or maybe Lovin' Spoonful if you believe in magic
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby Bill Marsh » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:41 pm

billyjack wrote:
Bill Marsh wrote:
DudeAnon wrote:Just think about it relative to the teams you are playing. St. John's has a brand new head coach with almost completely new players. You are competing against programs who have long tenured coaches with a proven formula of winning. It will take time for Mullin to develop the same thing. So you can bitch in 3 years, but before that you are just critiquing the process before its done.


A lot of Fleetwood Mac fans at St John's. They believe in miracles.


Bill, I think you mean Jefferson Starship...!
:)


That too. :D

Fleetwood Mac, the lines are in "You Make Lovin' Fun". ;)
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