Accountability at St. John's

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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby SJHooper » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:37 am

stever20 wrote:so looking at St John's right now.....

Ken Pom has 4 factors that he feels is important.
effective FG pct
Turnover pct
Offensive Reb pct
FT rate

for SJ- offense-
eFG%- up from 45.4 to 50.9%- up from 321 to 152. major plus
TO%- down from 20.9 to 18.2% up from 322 to 157. major plus
ORb%- up from 27.5 to 28.2%- up from 249 to 202. small plus
FTR- down from 38.0 to 35.0%- down from 134 to 175. small negative
so overall you would say the offense is much improved.

for SJ defense-
eFG%- down from 51.1 to 49.5%. up from 231 to 138. moderate plus.
TO%- down from 20.1 to 19.7%. down from 61 to 124. moderate negative.
ORb%- up from 30.9 to 31.8%. down from 232 to 274. small negative(even though it's improved, not as much as a lot of teams)
FTR- down from 43.3 to 35.2%. up from 307 to 174. major plus
so I think I'd say the defense is improved as well- but not quite as much as with the offense.

as far as hoopers point on players being now upperclassmen equiv- that's fine except for the fact that the 2 guys who man the guard position are both frosh. And overall the roster is so inexperienced- in KP they are 347 of 351 in terms of experience.


Interesting stats...a few takeaways: 1) we rely way too much on jump shots 2) we cannot rebound because our bigs are 150 lbs and Yakwe is awful 3) our defense is awful. Yes, Ponds and LoVett are freshmen...but they've played like upperclassmen much of the season so what's the point in mentioning how young they are? They are not the problem most nights. The problem is we are getting killed in the paint and we have no offensive threat in the paint. We cannot rebound to save our lives. Delgado was laughing all game...probably thought it was light work. He got 17 rebounds in what like 15 minutes?

We are a program that fired a coach who got us three 20 win seasons and 2 tourney bids in 5 years. Now, I totally agree with firing Lavin...he still should have been better here with what he had and his teams no showed in big games in tourneys plus no player development. But firing a coach with those results shows that we have high expectations as a program. We don't just want a few good regular seasons...we want to win tourney games. I feel like with the Mullin era it's lulling most of our fanbase into sleep. We used to be upset when we barely won 20 games fighting on the bubble...now we are happy when we are barely better than the worst season ever? You can look at the KenPom numbers but at the same time the only numbers that matter are W/L. If prettier numbers don't lead to wins then what's the point? If anything, better stats with similar poor results is an indictment on the coach. By the way, Ponds had a post last night on Instagram saying he's not happy and he's "thinking about a lot of things". LoVett is already expected to try to go pro somewhere after this year...if Ponds transferred or tried to go pro as well after this yr, it would be devastating.

NJRedman, just putting it very blunt: if we fail to win 15 games next year will you be disappointed or move the goalpost and rationalize it? Honestly curious.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:54 am

Honest answer, we'll worry about next year after we get through this year. Just looking at the standings we actually have a shot at finishing in 7th place with the way GTown is falling apart. A 7th place finish wouldn't be good enough for you after our worst season ever?
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby SJHooper » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:14 am

NJRedman wrote:Honest answer, we'll worry about next year after we get through this year. Just looking at the standings we actually have a shot at finishing in 7th place with the way GTown is falling apart. A 7th place finish wouldn't be good enough for you after our worst season ever?


Very tough time seeing us finishing 7th especially with both DePaul games out of the way, but yes it's possible. If we do then I would hope it's because we get 3-4 more wins and not that other teams simply fall behind us. Remember, a terrible G'Town team throttled us. I just don't see how anyone can be satisfied even in year 2 of Mullin so far. You assume we will win more games but we will be underdogs in basically every other game this year. Now with Ponds acting like he wants to transfer based on his post, I'm very concerned. I get the sense that the players are realizing that the coaching is not up to par and may need to go elsewhere to develop properly. Hope I'm wrong, but I think it played a role in why Sima left, we already know Yakwe's adviser confronted Mullin about his lack of improvement, and now with the Ponds post it seems like he's becoming disillusioned. If you don't have any legit concerns from what we've seen this year, then I want what you're drinking.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:00 pm

SJHooper wrote:
NJRedman wrote:Honest answer, we'll worry about next year after we get through this year. Just looking at the standings we actually have a shot at finishing in 7th place with the way GTown is falling apart. A 7th place finish wouldn't be good enough for you after our worst season ever?


Very tough time seeing us finishing 7th especially with both DePaul games out of the way, but yes it's possible. If we do then I would hope it's because we get 3-4 more wins and not that other teams simply fall behind us. Remember, a terrible G'Town team throttled us. I just don't see how anyone can be satisfied even in year 2 of Mullin so far. You assume we will win more games but we will be underdogs in basically every other game this year. Now with Ponds acting like he wants to transfer based on his post, I'm very concerned. I get the sense that the players are realizing that the coaching is not up to par and may need to go elsewhere to develop properly. Hope I'm wrong, but I think it played a role in why Sima left, we already know Yakwe's adviser confronted Mullin about his lack of improvement, and now with the Ponds post it seems like he's becoming disillusioned. If you don't have any legit concerns from what we've seen this year, then I want what you're drinking.


Very tough time? we're tied with PC for 7th now. We have two more games against them. The Georgetown series the last 6 years has been dominated by the home team. They would blow us out in DC and we would blow them out in MSG. Thats what we do to each other. Why do you think Ponds was unhappy? Maybe because he played his worst game at this level yesterday? You are reading into him wanting to transfer. He's never said anything about leaving, thats you assuming.

If you don't see any positives then I don't want what you are drinking. Stever laid out the numbers. We don't need alternative facts from you.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby stever20 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:05 pm

NJRedman wrote:If you don't see any positives then I don't want what you are drinking. Stever laid out the numbers. We don't need alternative facts from you.

#first time ever NJRedman supported anything I typed
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby Bill Marsh » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:43 pm

SJHooper wrote:
Bill Marsh wrote:
SJHooper wrote:Using Ollie as an example of a new coach who succeeded is really stupid. Sometimes it doesn't matter who the coach is when you already have a ton of talent on the team who were already coached up by a HOFer (Calhoun). If Ollie was such a great coach, it would show even without Calhoun leaving him great players. In a year totally disconnected from Calhoun or their old Big East era, they are terrible in a terrible conference. Same can be said for the Yankees of the late 90's through 2000. I could have been the manager and they still would have won. Look at Steve Kerr...is he really a genius? Or did he inherit an NBA All Star team? You could make Tiger Woods the coach and he'd still win with that talent. Ollie was an obvious case of inheriting talent that was going win anyway, not because of him.

I also truly think some will never give up on Mullin even if he can't win more than 8-9 games each year of his tenure. There will always be excuses i.e. injuries, youth, good recruits that just didn't pan out, new coach, just give him more time, etc. Mullin is what he is, the best player we've ever had, an NBA HOFer, but he is not a good coach and some will never accept that.


Hooper, I hope you feel better today after yesterday's win. You're a good guy and I love your enthusiasm, but you obviously know nothing about the UConn program. You should do your homework before coming out with a statement like the one you just made.

1. Calhoun left the team on probation with 4 starters leaving the program.
2. It was Ollie who recruited the "Calhoun players" whom he inherited.
3. Except for Napier, most of the "Calhoun players" got very little playing time under Calhoun.
4. The players on Ollie's championship team, including Shabazz, saw at least as much coasching time under Ollie as under Calhoun. Most got more under Ollie. He developed them.
5. Calhoun did not leave Ollie a championship roster loaded with former McD All Americans and future NBA players. He did not. That's simply a fact. This was not Tubby Smith inheriting a championship roster from Rick Pitino.
5. Ollie did not win that championship because he had better players. He beat Kentucky and Florida, teams that were loaded with superior talent to what he had.
6. Anyone who watched UConn's run through the tournament that year saw one of the great coaching jobs in tournament history. UConn won because of Ollie's coaching, not because he had Calhoun's players.


So Calhoun left him Napier...who literally threw the team on his back en route to the championship.


Did you watch their run through the tournament that year? You talk like someone who didn't. As important as Shabazz was, he didn't do it by himself. Did you see the job that Napier and Boatright did together on the much bigger Kentucky guards? Did you see Daniels' big games? Did you see Brimah blocking shots? Or Giffey killing teams from 3?

How does Ollie get credit for that?


Ollie gets credit because he's the one who devised the coaching strategy that enabled them to win 6 teams in the tournament. He gets credit because he took a program that was demoralized after Calhoun left them on probation with 4 starters leaving like rats deserting a sinking ship. Ollie's the one who talked Napier into staying when he too considered transferring. He gets credit because he pulled them together and got them to play hard in that first year even when they had nothing to play for because they were suspended from both the BE and NCAA tournaments.

Even UConn fans agree that he was riding Calhoun's coat tails.


Really? I don't know where you come across UConn fans but I live 40 minute from their campus. I'm surrounded by UConn fans. What you're saying is simply not the case.

It's not just the specific players I'm talking about, the credit you give to Ollie really belongs to Calhoun...you can't tell me all those great recruits would be going to UConn without Calhoun's major success winning lots of rings. He was the reason it was a winning program that got them those recruits to commit. By the time Ollie took over, he already had the prestige of the program and recent rings thanks to Calhoun, to sell to recruits. Essentially, the program sold itself. It's like Gucci...everyone wants it, it's prestigious already. It's easier to walk into a top position at Gucci than it is some startup clothing brand. Imagine a new guy walking into the CEO spot at Gucci and after a year on the job, people are raving giving him all the credit for the brand's success that had been built up to that point.


Fair point. It's also fair to say that following a legend doesn't guarantee success. Can you name me another coach besides Tubby Smith who won a NC simply because he inherited the legend's recruits? Tubby Smith literally inherited a championship caliber roster loaded with 5-star recruits, a team that had been to back-to-back Final 4's and won a NC. Ollie inherited a program that was in a shambles, on probation, and with players quitting the team in droves.

Once Calhoun left and the Big East era was in their rearview, they struggled. Again, UConn fans notice this. The more we see Ollie by himself with no help from Calhoun (even if he just left Napier he was 95% of the reason they won the ring) or the old Big East, the more he struggles. IMO that is not by accident. UConn is a mess.


Nope. Ollie won the NC when UConn was in the AAC. The Big East era was already in their rear view. Just as you do with St John's, you're ignoring the inconvenient facts. This year's team lost 3 players to season ending injuries. Three. Two were expected to be starters and both of those were expected to be stars. Tell me how many programs can sustain those kinds of losses. They're lucky they can put together a practice team; they're using walk-ons to do it. They were in the tournament last year and won a game. They had a top ten recruiting class this year and are expecting another one next year. I'd say that Ollie has the program in very good health and will likely have a big year next season.
Last edited by Bill Marsh on Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:13 pm

stever20 wrote:
NJRedman wrote:If you don't see any positives then I don't want what you are drinking. Stever laid out the numbers. We don't need alternative facts from you.

#first time ever NJRedman supported anything I typed


Thats how crazy this Hooper guy is. Facts are facts.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby Edrick » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:34 pm

NJRedman wrote:Thats how crazy this Hooper guy is. Facts are facts.


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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby gtmoBlue » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:33 pm

NJRedman with ...patience and primary facts...
Bill Marsh with...the patience of Job.

You 2 guys are to be commended for educating and for your utmost civility. Kudos to you both.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi
"Top tier teams rarely have true "down" years and find a way to stay relevant every year." - Adoraz

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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby SJHooper » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:00 pm

Sorry but if you think Calhoun/Old Big East fingerprints were totally gone when they won you are mistaken. You can argue how much it influenced their season but it definitely helped them. UConn sucked even before their players got hurt this yr. Ollie is finally left the keys with only his players and what has he done? Nothing. Yes they were in AAC but with BIG EAST players some which Calhoun left. Without Napier no way they win. You know it too.

As for SJ, we are improving but at a slug's pace. You have to wonder if they'd slightly improve naturally regardless of coach. You can bet if we don't win 15 next yr I will be calling for a real coach and I expect others to join.
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