Accountability at St. John's

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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby brewcity77 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:58 am

SJHooper wrote:Under Willard, SHU has never lost more than 13 games. At this point, we would be lucky to win 13. That would mean we somehow get 5 more wins which is very unlikely. Willard won 21 games his 2nd season. This flies in the face of people who say it's impossible to get instant results.


Okay...first of all, you want to talk facts, you should look some up. Here are Willard's records:

2010-11: 13-18
2011-12: 21-13
2012-13: 15-18
2013-14: 17-17
2014-15: 16-15
2015-16: 25-9

So he's had 6 complete seasons, and he lost more than 13 in most of them. I'm not at all convinced by Willard yet. His one recruiting class was great, but he failed to get to the NCAAs with guys like Theodore, Pope, Edwin, Gibbs, etc. Impressed where they are now, but I'll wait to see what Willard's team does after Delgado, Carrington, and Rodriguez leave.

SJHooper wrote:I believe we even made the CBS Sports list for "Most Improved Teams". So I guess they don't know much about basketball either, even though it's their job. Pardon me, but doesn't "improved" mean better?


As I recall, Jon Rothstein said that. He's a New York guy who always seems to overrate St. John's. I wouldn't take too much solace from him fluffing the pillows at Carnasecca.

We are going through similar at Marquette. People aren't convinced by Wojo. 13 wins in his first season, failing to reach the NCAAs with Ellenson last year, and fans wondering if he knows how to coach defense or just likes to slap the floor this year. But when you look at a program like Villanova, which is the envy of the league, it took Jay Wright 4 years to reach the NCAAs and 16 to win a title. You don't get there overnight.

I don't know what to make of Mullin yet. Ponds and LoVett are talented but streaky and sometimes disappear against good teams. However the whole roster is really, REALLY young. Ahmed is the only upperclassman getting minutes. The talent is there to pull off the occasional stunner, but by and large more experienced Big East teams are going to take you behind the woodshed in the second halves of games. You've already doubled your Big East win total from last year and I'd guess your team probably manages 3-4 more league wins.

Teams like Villanova, Creighton, Butler, Xavier, and Seton Hall aren't just good, they're good and experienced, and that takes years. Lavin left you with a similar bill of goods like Buzz left us. A vacant roster with a lot of work to do. A buddy of mine says you need to give a coach 5 years to see what he does with a roster of his own players before you really pass judgment. I think that's fair in this case too.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby MackNova » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:11 pm

SJHooper wrote:People seem to forget the expectations coming into this season. There was chatter of an NIT berth and even a possible dark horse NCAA berth. Reading Redmen I even saw some predicting 21+ wins. Maybe one poster predicted 15 and that was the extreme low end but this is what I believed was doable.


St. John's was 8-24 last season, and they lost several players who played a bunch of minutes.. Anyone who predicted an NCAA berth was out of their damn minds.

I don't think I've seen a cupboard as bare as what Lavin left St. John's in a while. Last year's St. John's team was a few mediocre freshmen, a couple freshmen with some talent, and a couple mediocre grad transfers.

The problem is that your expectations were really out of line. St. John's has gone from 211th in KenPom last year to 100th this year. That's a big jump for a team that has the 4th-least experience in the country. And as someone else said, these aren't Kentucky-level freshmen.

It's a little like Seton Hall in 2014-15 when most of the team was that freshman class. They had some moments, but were more inconsistent than anything else. And that team was better than this St. John's team because they had better freshmen and better upperclassmen. The next year, they were in the NCAA Tournament. I don't think St. John's is good enough to make the NCAA Tournament next year, but they should take another step forward.

Entering this season, every Big East fan that does not root for St. John's was debating DePaul and St. John's for the 9 and 10 spots in the league. There was always a clear divide between the top 8 and the bottom 2. And it's played out that way.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby SJHooper » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:12 pm

brewcity77 wrote:
SJHooper wrote:Under Willard, SHU has never lost more than 13 games. At this point, we would be lucky to win 13. That would mean we somehow get 5 more wins which is very unlikely. Willard won 21 games his 2nd season. This flies in the face of people who say it's impossible to get instant results.


Okay...first of all, you want to talk facts, you should look some up. Here are Willard's records:

2010-11: 13-18
2011-12: 21-13
2012-13: 15-18
2013-14: 17-17
2014-15: 16-15
2015-16: 25-9

So he's had 6 complete seasons, and he lost more than 13 in most of them. I'm not at all convinced by Willard yet. His one recruiting class was great, but he failed to get to the NCAAs with guys like Theodore, Pope, Edwin, Gibbs, etc. Impressed where they are now, but I'll wait to see what Willard's team does after Delgado, Carrington, and Rodriguez leave.

SJHooper wrote:I believe we even made the CBS Sports list for "Most Improved Teams". So I guess they don't know much about basketball either, even though it's their job. Pardon me, but doesn't "improved" mean better?


As I recall, Jon Rothstein said that. He's a New York guy who always seems to overrate St. John's. I wouldn't take too much solace from him fluffing the pillows at Carnasecca.

We are going through similar at Marquette. People aren't convinced by Wojo. 13 wins in his first season, failing to reach the NCAAs with Ellenson last year, and fans wondering if he knows how to coach defense or just likes to slap the floor this year. But when you look at a program like Villanova, which is the envy of the league, it took Jay Wright 4 years to reach the NCAAs and 16 to win a title. You don't get there overnight.

I don't know what to make of Mullin yet. Ponds and LoVett are talented but streaky and sometimes disappear against good teams. However the whole roster is really, REALLY young. Ahmed is the only upperclassman getting minutes. The talent is there to pull off the occasional stunner, but by and large more experienced Big East teams are going to take you behind the woodshed in the second halves of games. You've already doubled your Big East win total from last year and I'd guess your team probably manages 3-4 more league wins.

Teams like Villanova, Creighton, Butler, Xavier, and Seton Hall aren't just good, they're good and experienced, and that takes years. Lavin left you with a similar bill of goods like Buzz left us. A vacant roster with a lot of work to do. A buddy of mine says you need to give a coach 5 years to see what he does with a roster of his own players before you really pass judgment. I think that's fair in this case too.


Thanks for the post with actual substance instead of schoolyard insults that a certain someone is known for. I agree that Rothstein 100% overrates the program. He is definitely a homer and so is Zach Braziller. What they say about us or project us to be should be taken with a grain of salt. The truth lies somewhere between Goodman and Rothstein/Braziller. My apologies, I meant to say that Willard has never won less than 13 games. That's still 5 more wins than we had last year and it's quite possible that we end the year in single-digit wins again. Yes, the team is young, but if you use that excuse you have to explain Penn State's blowout, since they are very close to us experience wise. By the 3rd year if Mullin is not able to win 15 games with tons of upperclassmen and experience, then something is not right. That's setting the bar low too. Before the season started, this was supposed to be the 15 win year and '17-'18 was supposed to be the breakout year possibly ranked and likely tourney bound. So he basically gets his first 2 years excused by that standard. If he cannot show us 15+ W's next year I don't see any scenario where it wouldn't be fair to criticize his performance at that point unless some kind of major tragedy occurs. He'd have good recruits (not just recruits but his), tons of experience, tons of depth, and it would be his 3rd year as coach. It's a shame with Marquette...to be honest I don't think WoJo has what it takes. Clearly it's not working out there...you had Ellenson and couldn't make the tourney plus wasn't Fischer a JR/SR last yr? The talent was there to do it easily. It reminds me of Lavin when he had NBA talent (Sampson, Obekpa, Harkless, Sanchez, Jordan, etc.) and could not get them to gel or make any real noise.

I think several things need to happen if Mullin is here for the long haul:

1. Hire a real X and O guy with experience and hire an assistant coach that specializes with big men
2. Stop recruiting overseas and OSNA unless there is a can't miss recruit
3. Enough with the sitting and the nonchalant attitude in games, stand up and show passion even if just for the players' sake
4. Win 15+ next year
5. Give the team strict rules: big men don't shoot mid range shots, they are only to attempt to score if they are close enough to the hoop to dunk or lay it up without dribbling. Explain that everyone has a role and they need to play within them. If they do not follow instructions they will come out of the game. Also, in situations where points are desperately needed, Ponds is to get the ball first. Second choice is LoVett. Enough with giving Yakwe the ball 15 feet from the hoop when we need a basket badly or giving it to Ahmed so he can travel or run into a wall and throw up a wild shot. That's stupid and it's begging for an easy turnover.

I don't think any of the above are unreasonable.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby JohnW22 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:43 pm

If Ponds, LoVett, and Ahmed all come back next year St. John's should be pretty good I'd imagine. The good thing for St. John's is it shouldn't be too hard to build around a back court that includes Ponds and LoVett.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:46 pm

MackNova wrote:
SJHooper wrote:People seem to forget the expectations coming into this season. There was chatter of an NIT berth and even a possible dark horse NCAA berth. Reading Redmen I even saw some predicting 21+ wins. Maybe one poster predicted 15 and that was the extreme low end but this is what I believed was doable.


St. John's was 8-24 last season, and they lost several players who played a bunch of minutes.. Anyone who predicted an NCAA berth was out of their damn minds.

I don't think I've seen a cupboard as bare as what Lavin left St. John's in a while. Last year's St. John's team was a few mediocre freshmen, a couple freshmen with some talent, and a couple mediocre grad transfers.

The problem is that your expectations were really out of line. St. John's has gone from 211th in KenPom last year to 100th this year. That's a big jump for a team that has the 4th-least experience in the country. And as someone else said, these aren't Kentucky-level freshmen.

It's a little like Seton Hall in 2014-15 when most of the team was that freshman class. They had some moments, but were more inconsistent than anything else. And that team was better than this St. John's team because they had better freshmen and better upperclassmen. The next year, they were in the NCAA Tournament. I don't think St. John's is good enough to make the NCAA Tournament next year, but they should take another step forward.

Entering this season, every Big East fan that does not root for St. John's was debating DePaul and St. John's for the 9 and 10 spots in the league. There was always a clear divide between the top 8 and the bottom 2. And it's played out that way.


Well he was on Redmen.com which is filled with a bunch of crazy fans who aren't in touch with reality.

I always said at best if everything broke just right for them and guys really improved from last year a 6th place finish and a NIT birth. That to me was the ceiling this team could reach. Right now we could still very well finish in 8th place which would be good for this program. Slow growth.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby SJUBBALL » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:22 pm

NJRedman wrote:
MackNova wrote:
SJHooper wrote:People seem to forget the expectations coming into this season. There was chatter of an NIT berth and even a possible dark horse NCAA berth. Reading Redmen I even saw some predicting 21+ wins. Maybe one poster predicted 15 and that was the extreme low end but this is what I believed was doable.


St. John's was 8-24 last season, and they lost several players who played a bunch of minutes.. Anyone who predicted an NCAA berth was out of their damn minds.

I don't think I've seen a cupboard as bare as what Lavin left St. John's in a while. Last year's St. John's team was a few mediocre freshmen, a couple freshmen with some talent, and a couple mediocre grad transfers.

The problem is that your expectations were really out of line. St. John's has gone from 211th in KenPom last year to 100th this year. That's a big jump for a team that has the 4th-least experience in the country. And as someone else said, these aren't Kentucky-level freshmen.

It's a little like Seton Hall in 2014-15 when most of the team was that freshman class. They had some moments, but were more inconsistent than anything else. And that team was better than this St. John's team because they had better freshmen and better upperclassmen. The next year, they were in the NCAA Tournament. I don't think St. John's is good enough to make the NCAA Tournament next year, but they should take another step forward.

Entering this season, every Big East fan that does not root for St. John's was debating DePaul and St. John's for the 9 and 10 spots in the league. There was always a clear divide between the top 8 and the bottom 2. And it's played out that way.


Well he was on Redmen.com which is filled with a bunch of crazy fans who aren't in touch with reality.

I always said at best if everything broke just right for them and guys really improved from last year a 6th place finish and a NIT birth. That to me was the ceiling this team could reach. Right now we could still very well finish in 8th place which would be good for this program. Slow growth.



Don't know what you were reading. 95% of the posters on redmen.com knew what this season was gonna be like. Sure there a few nut jobs but every fan message board has a couple.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby NJRedman » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:30 pm

SJUBBALL wrote:
NJRedman wrote:
MackNova wrote:
St. John's was 8-24 last season, and they lost several players who played a bunch of minutes.. Anyone who predicted an NCAA berth was out of their damn minds.

I don't think I've seen a cupboard as bare as what Lavin left St. John's in a while. Last year's St. John's team was a few mediocre freshmen, a couple freshmen with some talent, and a couple mediocre grad transfers.

The problem is that your expectations were really out of line. St. John's has gone from 211th in KenPom last year to 100th this year. That's a big jump for a team that has the 4th-least experience in the country. And as someone else said, these aren't Kentucky-level freshmen.

It's a little like Seton Hall in 2014-15 when most of the team was that freshman class. They had some moments, but were more inconsistent than anything else. And that team was better than this St. John's team because they had better freshmen and better upperclassmen. The next year, they were in the NCAA Tournament. I don't think St. John's is good enough to make the NCAA Tournament next year, but they should take another step forward.

Entering this season, every Big East fan that does not root for St. John's was debating DePaul and St. John's for the 9 and 10 spots in the league. There was always a clear divide between the top 8 and the bottom 2. And it's played out that way.


Well he was on Redmen.com which is filled with a bunch of crazy fans who aren't in touch with reality.

I always said at best if everything broke just right for them and guys really improved from last year a 6th place finish and a NIT birth. That to me was the ceiling this team could reach. Right now we could still very well finish in 8th place which would be good for this program. Slow growth.



Don't know what you were reading. 95% of the posters on redmen.com knew what this season was gonna be like. Sure there a few nut jobs but every fan message board has a couple.


Hooper was the one who said he saw people there saying we were gonna win 21 games and make the NCAAs.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby whiteandblue77 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:25 pm

I like Willard. Love that they play his tournament speech in our commercials, it is perfect, and they WON. He seems to have taken the torch that Buzz lit before he bailed. He picked up the pieces of a broken team a couple years ago when everyone on this board was calling for his head and he won a championship and continues to overachieve.

I don't think we have any weak links in the 10-man coaching chain in this league except for Mullin. Love the guy but Creighton went through the "NBA-legend-coaching-thing" with Willis Reed and it was another example of the same "experiment" not working. Don't think it ever has in college basketball... ever. Coaches and NBA All-Stars are different things, and it's seldom to never that they are the same person.
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby Bill Marsh » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:03 am

SJHooper wrote:
brewcity77 wrote:
SJHooper wrote:Under Willard, SHU has never lost more than 13 games. At this point, we would be lucky to win 13. That would mean we somehow get 5 more wins which is very unlikely. Willard won 21 games his 2nd season. This flies in the face of people who say it's impossible to get instant results.


Okay...first of all, you want to talk facts, you should look some up. Here are Willard's records:

2010-11: 13-18
2011-12: 21-13
2012-13: 15-18
2013-14: 17-17
2014-15: 16-15
2015-16: 25-9

So he's had 6 complete seasons, and he lost more than 13 in most of them. I'm not at all convinced by Willard yet. His one recruiting class was great, but he failed to get to the NCAAs with guys like Theodore, Pope, Edwin, Gibbs, etc. Impressed where they are now, but I'll wait to see what Willard's team does after Delgado, Carrington, and Rodriguez leave.

SJHooper wrote:I believe we even made the CBS Sports list for "Most Improved Teams". So I guess they don't know much about basketball either, even though it's their job. Pardon me, but doesn't "improved" mean better?


As I recall, Jon Rothstein said that. He's a New York guy who always seems to overrate St. John's. I wouldn't take too much solace from him fluffing the pillows at Carnasecca.

We are going through similar at Marquette. People aren't convinced by Wojo. 13 wins in his first season, failing to reach the NCAAs with Ellenson last year, and fans wondering if he knows how to coach defense or just likes to slap the floor this year. But when you look at a program like Villanova, which is the envy of the league, it took Jay Wright 4 years to reach the NCAAs and 16 to win a title. You don't get there overnight.

I don't know what to make of Mullin yet. Ponds and LoVett are talented but streaky and sometimes disappear against good teams. However the whole roster is really, REALLY young. Ahmed is the only upperclassman getting minutes. The talent is there to pull off the occasional stunner, but by and large more experienced Big East teams are going to take you behind the woodshed in the second halves of games. You've already doubled your Big East win total from last year and I'd guess your team probably manages 3-4 more league wins.

Teams like Villanova, Creighton, Butler, Xavier, and Seton Hall aren't just good, they're good and experienced, and that takes years. Lavin left you with a similar bill of goods like Buzz left us. A vacant roster with a lot of work to do. A buddy of mine says you need to give a coach 5 years to see what he does with a roster of his own players before you really pass judgment. I think that's fair in this case too.


Thanks for the post with actual substance instead of schoolyard insults that a certain someone is known for. I agree that Rothstein 100% overrates the program. He is definitely a homer and so is Zach Braziller. What they say about us or project us to be should be taken with a grain of salt. The truth lies somewhere between Goodman and Rothstein/Braziller. My apologies, I meant to say that Willard has never won less than 13 games. That's still 5 more wins than we had last year and it's quite possible that we end the year in single-digit wins again. Yes, the team is young, but if you use that excuse you have to explain Penn State's blowout, since they are very close to us experience wise. By the 3rd year if Mullin is not able to win 15 games with tons of upperclassmen and experience, then something is not right. That's setting the bar low too. Before the season started, this was supposed to be the 15 win year and '17-'18 was supposed to be the breakout year possibly ranked and likely tourney bound. So he basically gets his first 2 years excused by that standard. If he cannot show us 15+ W's next year I don't see any scenario where it wouldn't be fair to criticize his performance at that point unless some kind of major tragedy occurs. He'd have good recruits (not just recruits but his), tons of experience, tons of depth, and it would be his 3rd year as coach. It's a shame with Marquette...to be honest I don't think WoJo has what it takes. Clearly it's not working out there...you had Ellenson and couldn't make the tourney plus wasn't Fischer a JR/SR last yr? The talent was there to do it easily. It reminds me of Lavin when he had NBA talent (Sampson, Obekpa, Harkless, Sanchez, Jordan, etc.) and could not get them to gel or make any real noise.

I think several things need to happen if Mullin is here for the long haul:

1. Hire a real X and O guy with experience and hire an assistant coach that specializes with big men
2. Stop recruiting overseas and OSNA unless there is a can't miss recruit
3. Enough with the sitting and the nonchalant attitude in games, stand up and show passion even if just for the players' sake
4. Win 15+ next year
5. Give the team strict rules: big men don't shoot mid range shots, they are only to attempt to score if they are close enough to the hoop to dunk or lay it up without dribbling. Explain that everyone has a role and they need to play within them. If they do not follow instructions they will come out of the game. Also, in situations where points are desperately needed, Ponds is to get the ball first. Second choice is LoVett. Enough with giving Yakwe the ball 15 feet from the hoop when we need a basket badly or giving it to Ahmed so he can travel or run into a wall and throw up a wild shot. That's stupid and it's begging for an easy turnover.

I don't think any of the above are unreasonable.


1. X's and O's are not the problem.
2. Mullin recruited overseas to find bodies when Lavin left him nothing. He came to recruiting late that year and had to go wherever he could find bodies. Otherwise, nothing wrong with recruiting the right players overseas. Mark Few has built a dynasty at Gonzaga doing that.
3. Passion from coaches on the sidelines is overrated. Most coaches doing that are just being jerks. It's actually detrimental to yell and scream with a young team that is struggling. The best coaches I ever saw were not outwardly passionate.
4. 15+ would be nice. Whatever.
5. Do you really think that the coaches aren't doing that? It takes time for players to learn to implement a system properly and they make a ton of mistakes while they are learning.

As good as Ponds and LoVett are, they're both small. That hurts them on defense. When they bring is Mussini, they're small and slow. The point is even at the positions where they have talent, they also have limitations. No coach can make them taller. I think that Simon and Clark will make a big difference next year.j
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Re: Accountability at St. John's

Postby SJHooper » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:21 am

Thanks for the post with actual substance instead of schoolyard insults that a certain someone is known for. I agree that Rothstein 100% overrates the program. He is definitely a homer and so is Zach Braziller. What they say about us or project us to be should be taken with a grain of salt. The truth lies somewhere between Goodman and Rothstein/Braziller. My apologies, I meant to say that Willard has never won less than 13 games. That's still 5 more wins than we had last year and it's quite possible that we end the year in single-digit wins again. Yes, the team is young, but if you use that excuse you have to explain Penn State's blowout, since they are very close to us experience wise. By the 3rd year if Mullin is not able to win 15 games with tons of upperclassmen and experience, then something is not right. That's setting the bar low too. Before the season started, this was supposed to be the 15 win year and '17-'18 was supposed to be the breakout year possibly ranked and likely tourney bound. So he basically gets his first 2 years excused by that standard. If he cannot show us 15+ W's next year I don't see any scenario where it wouldn't be fair to criticize his performance at that point unless some kind of major tragedy occurs. He'd have good recruits (not just recruits but his), tons of experience, tons of depth, and it would be his 3rd year as coach. It's a shame with Marquette...to be honest I don't think WoJo has what it takes. Clearly it's not working out there...you had Ellenson and couldn't make the tourney plus wasn't Fischer a JR/SR last yr? The talent was there to do it easily. It reminds me of Lavin when he had NBA talent (Sampson, Obekpa, Harkless, Sanchez, Jordan, etc.) and could not get them to gel or make any real noise.

I think several things need to happen if Mullin is here for the long haul:

1. Hire a real X and O guy with experience and hire an assistant coach that specializes with big men
2. Stop recruiting overseas and OSNA unless there is a can't miss recruit
3. Enough with the sitting and the nonchalant attitude in games, stand up and show passion even if just for the players' sake
4. Win 15+ next year
5. Give the team strict rules: big men don't shoot mid range shots, they are only to attempt to score if they are close enough to the hoop to dunk or lay it up without dribbling. Explain that everyone has a role and they need to play within them. If they do not follow instructions they will come out of the game. Also, in situations where points are desperately needed, Ponds is to get the ball first. Second choice is LoVett. Enough with giving Yakwe the ball 15 feet from the hoop when we need a basket badly or giving it to Ahmed so he can travel or run into a wall and throw up a wild shot. That's stupid and it's begging for an easy turnover.

I don't think any of the above are unreasonable.[/quote]

1. X's and O's are not the problem.
2. Mullin recruited overseas to find bodies when Lavin left him nothing. He came to recruiting late that year and had to go wherever he could find bodies. Otherwise, nothing wrong with recruiting the right players overseas. Mark Few has built a dynasty at Gonzaga doing that.
3. Passion from coaches on the sidelines is overrated. Most coaches doing that are just being jerks. It's actually detrimental to yell and scream with a young team that is struggling. The best coaches I ever saw were not outwardly passionate.
4. 15+ would be nice. Whatever.
5. Do you really think that the coaches aren't doing that? It takes time for players to learn to implement a system properly and they make a ton of mistakes while they are learning.

As good as Ponds and LoVett are, they're both small. That hurts them on defense. When they bring is Mussini, they're small and slow. The point is even at the positions where they have talent, they also have limitations. No coach can make them taller. I think that Simon and Clark will make a big difference next year.j[/quote]

1. What makes you say this? Most games we seem to have 1 guy with the ball and the others are standing around not even making the defense move. Can't tell you how many times our guys have left a teammate out there trying to get rid of the ball when double-teamed or trapped and they just leave them out to dry usually leading to a turnover or a jump ball.
2. Yes, totally understandable for the beginning of his tenure, but he should end the experiment now unless it's a can't miss kid. Yes, Gonzaga is great with this...but we are not. All the Euros we got have been pretty unathletic, slow, and have trouble adjusting to the pace of the game.
3. If you're coaching older adults, I agree. But I can tell you when I was 18, I would definitely feed off my coach's passion and be surprised if they acted so nonchalant. To each their own I guess.
4. 15 is fair...more than fair IMO
5. As I've said, they either don't say it or they don't enforce it. Because every game we have our bigs who cannot shoot taking ridiculous shots. Pretty late in the season to be doing that and Yakwe has been here 2 years with Mullin.
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