Mullin and St. John's

[SJHooper]

I came across the following list from June, 2015, rank ordering colleges by the amount of money they spend on their basketball programs. This would include the 2 most important things to a coach about a school - how much they pay him and what level of financial support will they provide for the program. I realize that there are other factors that go into making a top program, so I just offer this as one piece of the puzzle.

1. Louisville
2. Kentucky
3. Duke
4. Syracuse
5. Oklahoma State
6. Minnesota
7. Indiana
8. Marquette
9. Georgetown
10. Auburn

11. Michigan State
12. Arizona
13. Texas
14. Florida
15. Memphis
16. Pitt
17. Kansas
18. Oregon State
19. UCLA
20. UConn

21. St. John's
22. Baylor
23. Illinois
24. Oklahoma
25. NC State
26. West Virginia
27. Arkansas
28. Virginia
29. Wisconsin
30. Michigan

31. Wake Forest
32. Villanova
33. North Carolina
34. Arizona State
35. Boston College
36. Providence
37. Vanderbilt
38. SMU
39. South Carolina
40. Texas A&M

This is glaring to me. #21 in the country in terms of $ invested into hoops. And what do we have to show for it? I know it wouldn't correlate exactly with performance, but my god...you would certainly expect SJ to be a pretty regular top 25-30 team most years, no? We spend a ton of money...that's not the problem. We get good recruits...that's not the problem. Other teams are young too like Penn State who embarrassed us...that's not the problem. The problem is COACHING! It's so glaring and it becomes more obvious by the day. We have had bad coach after bad coach. Lavin wasn't terrible but he should have done more. He was decent, not good or great. If we add a good coach to our program but don't see a major turnaround in the coming years, I will honestly be stumped and may have to spend less time caring so much about SJ because the cost/benefit analysis is so lopsided. This program has given so little joy over the years and I really hope Nova, Butler, Xavier, PC, Creighton, etc. fans know how good they have it. Don't ever take it for granted. Just to see SJ in the top 25 a few years back made my week. I can't imagine how I'd feel if it was like that all the time. I'd probably be nervous waiting for the other shoe to drop lol. My fear is that the longer we stick with Mullin, the closer we will get to DePaul and start to settle in that role as a bottom feeder. I hope he walks after this year, but if next year is anything less than 15 wins and clear improvement in many different facets, he has to go. Nothing personal, we all love Mully but he just is not a coach and he's making that painfully obvious.

By the way, Marcus LoVett had a live stream on instagram last night I was watching and it was funny because Greg St. Jean, one of the assistant coaches was hanging out with them and you could hear him telling LoVett, Ellison, Williams, etc. how terrible they were vs. PSU. They were talking about Cuse and how they have to come out with energy from the jump. The best part is that I'm pretty sure St. Jean had no idea he was being recorded. You could hear the players discussing last game as if they were in the background watching the tape, talking about how they didn't get back on defense and how they didn't correct themselves at all which led to the 35-5 run by PSU. This wasn't a practice or anything, it was in the hotel room in Syracuse, so I guess it's good to see them discussing this stuff on their down time. One guy posted a comment to Ellison (who was filming), saying "you have to pass to Ponds more" and he saw it and was laughing. They were also talking about how soft Lydon is (on Cuse) and were telling Williams he has to "throw some bows" and get physical with him. I thought that was weird, since Lydon is not supposed to play but who knows?

[SJHooper]

To answer the original question - No, St. John's is absolutely not a "top job" anymore.

Honest question: Let's say the St. John's job opened up in a couple of years and they wanted to go after some up-and-coming mid-major coach. Does anyone feel like it would be a slamdunk that that coach would choose St. John's over a school like Clemson or Oklahoma State? I honestly don't. And those schools certainly aren't elite basketball schools.

It totally depends. Lavin was a nationally-known big name coach who was at UCLA and he loves major cities. Not everyone wants to be in the middle of nowhere in Clemson or OSU. Those are football schools and that's where the lion's share of their money goes. So they really don't have a monetary advantage over us in terms of hoops. I think people are totally undermining the potential of the job. This is literally the biggest stage. Being in a premier conference in the biggest city on the biggest stage in the most famous arena with the cameras flashing all over and being able to be paid $2 million a year while living comfortably on Long Island or in a luxurious apartment in Manhattan...pretty sure many coaches would say yes. People keep assuming prospective coaches would look at us now and say "they are a bad team right now, therefore I will not come". That's not how they think. If you are a coach, you think future. You think "where can I take this program?". It's like a mansion that has become decrepit over time. The shingles are hanging on by a thread, the paint is all chipped, the roof is caved in, etc. No one would buy that home thinking in the immediate. They would see it as an investment and envision what it would be like all fixed up and returned to its former glory. That's what St. John's is. If someone is willing to come here, be patient, put the house back together piece by piece, and take a chance, they will be handsomely rewarded to say the least. I always love referencing the law of averages and I think we are due for a coach that finally works long term. We just have to set ourselves up for success by picking the best candidate. If it were an NFL draft, it would be like our top pick being a bust every year. Eventually, it will work out. But it won't work with Mullin here, so not sure why we'd waste our time beyond this year or next at the most. The ones backing Mullin and telling everyone to be patient are just letting their emotions get in the way because he was our best player ever. Patience is only a good thing given the fact that you are going in the right direction. Mullin is taking us backwards. Blind patience is stupid. We need to make a coaching change, not just throw our hands up and keep racking up single digit win seasons. Evidence indicates Mullin cannot do the job. It's very clear and I believe more fans will see that going into conference play. Some fans have zero standards for this program and would tell others to be patient after 10 straight winless seasons.

[Bill Marsh]

To answer the original question - No, St. John's is absolutely not a "top job" anymore.

Honest question: Let's say the St. John's job opened up in a couple of years and they wanted to go after some up-and-coming mid-major coach. Does anyone feel like it would be a slamdunk that that coach would choose St. John's over a school like Clemson or Oklahoma State? I honestly don't. And those schools certainly aren't elite basketball schools.

They would if the choice was St John's vs Clemson. OK State is a different story. OK State isn't guaranteed either as evidenced by the fact that their coach with multiple years left on a lucrative contract walked out to go to St Louis, reportedly due to meddling big donors. Are the Billikens a better job than the Redmen?

[stever20]

To answer the original question - No, St. John's is absolutely not a "top job" anymore.

Honest question: Let's say the St. John's job opened up in a couple of years and they wanted to go after some up-and-coming mid-major coach. Does anyone feel like it would be a slamdunk that that coach would choose St. John's over a school like Clemson or Oklahoma State? I honestly don't. And those schools certainly aren't elite basketball schools.

They would if the choice was St John's vs Clemson. OK State is a different story. OK State isn't guaranteed either as evidenced by the fact that their coach with multiple years left on a lucrative contract walked out to go to St Louis, reportedly due to meddling big donors. Are the Billikens a better job than the Redmen?

That would be fine except for the fact that Ford was fired from Oklahoma St.

[ConnersvilleBulldog]

To answer the original question - No, St. John's is absolutely not a "top job" anymore.

Honest question: Let's say the St. John's job opened up in a couple of years and they wanted to go after some up-and-coming mid-major coach. Does anyone feel like it would be a slamdunk that that coach would choose St. John's over a school like Clemson or Oklahoma State? I honestly don't. And those schools certainly aren't elite basketball schools.

They would if the choice was St John's vs Clemson. OK State is a different story. OK State isn't guaranteed either as evidenced by the fact that their coach with multiple years left on a lucrative contract walked out to go to St Louis, reportedly due to meddling big donors. Are the Billikens a better job than the Redmen?

I really don't think it would be an automatic that a coach would choose St. John's over a school like Clemson.

Plus, I just chose Clemson & OK State as random examples as a point. St. John's is much closer to those types of programs right now than they are to Arizona, Wisconsin, Louisville, or any of the other really good programs that fall outside of the blue bloods.

[billyjack]

But that 3 year period just was a blip quite frankly. Lets say Providence or Seton Hall goes back into a funk now for the next 15 years(I'm definitely not calling it, but just using as an example). It's going to feel like they have been dormant much longer than just the 15 years because of the time before those 3 years.

Also the problems in those 1st 10 years were already starting to show. In Carnasecca's last 10 years- they made the tourney in 9 of 10 years(with the other year being an NIT title). 105-57 in those 10 years in Big East play. So to go from that to 5 of 10, with in those 10 years 93-81 in Big East play(in a time where the Big East was probably close to it's weakest ever as well). 4 losing overall years(first time with a losing year since the 60's).

We are here to learn...

The "blip" was St John's not making the postseason. From 1965 thru 2003, SJU made either an NCAA or NIT for all but 4 years. From 1939 thru 2003, SJU missed the postseason only 13 times... 51 postseasons in 64 years... not sure any other school can match that... maybe UCLA...?

These were the St John's coaching hires, all sensible hires... some didn't work out... a couple had controversies... each made sense:

Note that:
- Mahoney was the common sense, seamless-transition choice.
- Fraschilla was the hottest young coach in the country.
- Jarvis was an excellent, hot coach, top name.
- Roberts was the safe non-controversial hire.
- Lavin provided glitz and great recruiting.
- Mullin was to pull back to SJU's roots.

1. Carnesecca retired at the end of the 1992 season.

2. Brian Mahoney hired (1993 thru 1996):
- a completely sensible and logical and great hire from within the St John's family.
- longtime assistant coach to Louie at SJU.
- actually played for Louie with the ABA Nets.
- NYC guy. 44 years old. From Rockville Center, hometown on Billy Donovan.
- played in college at Manhattan.
- left SJU after 4 years.
- at SJU, 93 NCAA, beat Texas Tech, lost to Nolan Richardson's Razorbacks.
- at SJU, 95 NIT.
- after no postseason in 96, SJU moved on.

3. Fran Fraschilla hired (1997 and 1998):
- home run hire.
- one of the hottest young coaches in the country.
- 38 years old, from Brooklyn, NYC guy.
- Manhattan coach from 1993 thru 1996.
- The Jaspers hadn't made an NCAA since 1958.
- Fraschilla took the Jaspers to 2 NCAA's, in 93 and 95.
- The 95 Jaspers won an NCAA game, by 10 over Oklahoma.
- Previously was an assistant to Rick Barnes at Providence.
- Previous Manhattan coach was Steve Lappas, who was having a ton of success at the time of Fraschilla's hiring at SJU... so SJU following the Jasper coaching pipeline.
- took SJU to 1 NCAA in 2 years.
- had to leave SJU after 2 years over some controversy thing that I can't remember the details on.

4. Mike Jarvis (hired 1999 thru 2004).
- home run hire.
- one of the hottest coaches in the country.
- from Boston, alum of Northeastern.
- coached at the famous Cambridge Rindge and Latin HS, players included Patrick Ewing among others.
- 5 years at Boston University... 2 NCAA's, 1 NIT.
- 8 years at George Washington (1991 thru 1998)... GW hadn't made NCAA's since 1961, had never won an NCAA game.
- at GW... 7 postseasons in 8 years... 4 NCAA's and 3 NIT's.
- at GW... 1993 Sweet Sixteen... lost to eventual finalist Fab-Five Michigan.
- at GW... ranked 4 out of 8 years.
- at St John's for 6 years... 3 NCAA's... 1999 Elite Eight... 2000 Big East Tournament Champions... 2003 NIT Champions... 2004 left due to some controversy which I forgot the details on.

5. Norm Roberts:
- the safe hire who avoided controversy.

6. Steve Lavin:
- great recruiter, Purdue and UCLA background, Hollywood style.

7. Chris Mullin:
- NBA HOF, SJU legend.

[Savannah Jay]

To answer the original question - No, St. John's is absolutely not a "top job" anymore.

Honest question: Let's say the St. John's job opened up in a couple of years and they wanted to go after some up-and-coming mid-major coach. Does anyone feel like it would be a slamdunk that that coach would choose St. John's over a school like Clemson or Oklahoma State? I honestly don't. And those schools certainly aren't elite basketball schools.

They would if the choice was St John's vs Clemson. OK State is a different story. OK State isn't guaranteed either as evidenced by the fact that their coach with multiple years left on a lucrative contract walked out to go to St Louis, reportedly due to meddling big donors. Are the Billikens a better job than the Redmen?

Travis Ford was fired at Oklahoma State. I believe Ford and AD Holder released a mutual statement about "agreeing to part ways" but he was fired.

[stever20]

In this 25 year period, that 3 year period IS the blip. You say 1965-2003- that's fine- but those 4 years were in the last 10. The shine had already started to come off.

Also for your comment about St John's missing postseason only 13 times in 64 years. North Carolina is on a streak right now of 49/50. Also, the St John's streak has at least some NIT appearances that were gimme's- sorry but going like one year 14-13 and getting an NIT bid doesn't impress me much. I'm sure I'll be able to find some others.

Sorry but 25 years of mediocrity or worse has St John's in a pretty poor state right now. I don't know if I'd even say their a top job in the Big East. Let alone the country. 12 losing seasons probably in 25 years does that you know.

[Savannah Jay]

This is literally the biggest stage. Being in a premier conference in the biggest city on the biggest stage in the most famous arena with the cameras flashing all over and being able to be paid $2 million a year while living comfortably on Long Island or in a luxurious apartment in Manhattan...pretty sure many coaches would say yes.

NY is a huge stage, but the leaders of the Yankees, Mets, Knicks, Nets, Jets, Giants, Rangers, and Islanders have the leads on that stage.

And $2MM a year doesn't go as far in NY as it does in Clemson, SC or Stillwater, OK (to use the previous examples). Gregggg Marshall, who could potentially be a candidate for an opening like SJU, makes $3.3MM a year. That goes really far in Wichita.

[EMT]

2nd Level Schools (11), listed alphabetically:
- Arizona.
- Louisville.
- Marquette.
- Maryland.
- Michigan.
- Michigan State.
- Ohio State.
- St John's.
- Syracuse.
- Texas.
- Villanova.

I disagree with Syracuse until I see someone other than Boeheim succeed there. I might have to begrudgingly put UConn on the list