(7) Saturday BE Games 12/10/16

[SJHooper]

I'm sorry but I just cannot except the platitudes anymore. Wait until next year. They are young! The year after next will be great! The truth is that we are told to wait and wait and wait and nothing every actually materializes. If this was a truly untalented team like last year, I could understand the lumps. It just wasn't there. But the talent was upgraded significantly...and somehow we have found a way to do WORSE to this point than we were last year. Let me repeat that for those still drinking their coffee...we are actually worse record wise right now than at this point last year. That was the worst team ever in our 100+ year history. And we are doing worse than that this year so far. Who do you blame for that other than the coach? As you get more talent and more experience, you are supposed to clearly improve. If that does not happen it suggests some level of incompetence. Like I've said and others have said...whatever "it" is....SJ just doesn't have it. You can feel it in your gut. You just know something's not right and I got the same feeling early on with Lavin. We hear time and time again about our youth and that once they are seniors they will magically turn into butterflies instead of remaining caterpillars. The standard for success in this program is now this: making the tourney once every 4 years (because remember they shouldn't be expected to win until they are seniors) and MAYBE winning a game. That is atrocious. Other teams have young players and they win every single year no matter how many of the players graduate, leave early for the NBA, or transfer. It's a myth that you can only expect teams to be good once every 4 years. Darien Williams is not a freshman, nor is Mussini, Yakwe, nor was Sima, nor is Owens, or Ahmed, or Amar. When you add much more talent and get another year of experience, you are expected to improve and that is not happening. What is so controversial about that? I get losing to MSU, Minny, even VCU. But man, to lose to Delaware State (with LoVett), barely get by CSUN, and now lose to LIU which is close to #300 Kenpom, the proof is in the pudding. Mullin looks overwhelmed and in way over his head, because he is.

[Bill Marsh]

Relax Hooper. This year was never going to be your big step forward. You have a lot of talent, which is great, but it takes time for young talent to learn how to win at the D1 level. St. John's is reminding me a lot of Seton Hall's current junior class from when they were freshmen. They had flashes of greatness mixed with a lot of rookie mistakes. The big difference, and the reason Seton Hall survived into January before going up in flames was that their go-to scorer was also an experienced veteran in Sterling Gibbs (or Kemba Walker in disguise, still not sure...). The Johnnies unfortunately don't have that, and the result is they're likely going to take a lot more lumps this year, but they'll gain valuable experience and the improvement in their sophomore years could be even better.

Well said.

Lovett, for example, may be averaging 20 ppg, but it's all the other things about playing major college ball at this level that a rookie needs to learn from team defense, to passing and teamwork on the offensive end, to quick decision making, to learning their coach's system.

As for SHU, they not only had Gibbs and other vets, but they had in Whitehead for 2 years a talent that no one on SJU is close to.

[Bill Marsh]

I'm sorry but I just cannot except the platitudes anymore. Wait until next year. They are young! The year after next will be great! The truth is that we are told to wait and wait and wait and nothing every actually materializes. If this was a truly untalented team like last year, I could understand the lumps. It just wasn't there. But the talent was upgraded significantly...and somehow we have found a way to do WORSE to this point than we were last year. Let me repeat that for those still drinking their coffee...we are actually worse record wise right now than at this point last year. That was the worst team ever in our 100+ year history. And we are doing worse than that this year so far. Who do you blame for that other than the coach? As you get more talent and more experience, you are supposed to clearly improve. If that does not happen it suggests some level of incompetence. Like I've said and others have said...whatever "it" is....SJ just doesn't have it. You can feel it in your gut. You just know something's not right and I got the same feeling early on with Lavin. We hear time and time again about our youth and that once they are seniors they will magically turn into butterflies instead of remaining caterpillars. The standard for success in this program is now this: making the tourney once every 4 years (because remember they shouldn't be expected to win until they are seniors) and MAYBE winning a game. That is atrocious. Other teams have young players and they win every single year no matter how many of the players graduate, leave early for the NBA, or transfer. It's a myth that you can only expect teams to be good once every 4 years. Darien Williams is not a freshman, nor is Mussini, Yakwe, nor was Sima, nor is Owens, or Ahmed, or Amar. When you add much more talent and get another year of experience, you are expected to improve and that is not happening. What is so controversial about that? I get losing to MSU, Minny, even VCU. But man, to lose to Delaware State (with LoVett), barely get by CSUN, and now lose to LIU which is close to #300 Kenpom, the proof is in the pudding. Mullin looks overwhelmed and in way over his head, because he is.

Just curious. Didn't you want Lavin fired? Who are you replacing Mullin with?

[Hall2012]

The bottom line is St. John's made a PR hire instead of a basketball hire. Chris Mullin came into this job as the biggest name in St. John's basketball, but with zero head coaching experience. I can't imagine the SJU athletic department expects him to have the Johnnies in the tournament in his first 4 or 5 years. Fans may not like it, but the Mullin project needs to be a long term, learning on the job type project.

Bringing in an experienced head coach (even from a mid major) and giving 4 years to get in the tourney is one thing. Giving that same ultimatum to somebody who never coached a basketball game before in his life isn't fair.

[SJHooper]

I'm sorry but I just cannot except the platitudes anymore. Wait until next year. They are young! The year after next will be great! The truth is that we are told to wait and wait and wait and nothing every actually materializes. If this was a truly untalented team like last year, I could understand the lumps. It just wasn't there. But the talent was upgraded significantly...and somehow we have found a way to do WORSE to this point than we were last year. Let me repeat that for those still drinking their coffee...we are actually worse record wise right now than at this point last year. That was the worst team ever in our 100+ year history. And we are doing worse than that this year so far. Who do you blame for that other than the coach? As you get more talent and more experience, you are supposed to clearly improve. If that does not happen it suggests some level of incompetence. Like I've said and others have said...whatever "it" is....SJ just doesn't have it. You can feel it in your gut. You just know something's not right and I got the same feeling early on with Lavin. We hear time and time again about our youth and that once they are seniors they will magically turn into butterflies instead of remaining caterpillars. The standard for success in this program is now this: making the tourney once every 4 years (because remember they shouldn't be expected to win until they are seniors) and MAYBE winning a game. That is atrocious. Other teams have young players and they win every single year no matter how many of the players graduate, leave early for the NBA, or transfer. It's a myth that you can only expect teams to be good once every 4 years. Darien Williams is not a freshman, nor is Mussini, Yakwe, nor was Sima, nor is Owens, or Ahmed, or Amar. When you add much more talent and get another year of experience, you are expected to improve and that is not happening. What is so controversial about that? I get losing to MSU, Minny, even VCU. But man, to lose to Delaware State (with LoVett), barely get by CSUN, and now lose to LIU which is close to #300 Kenpom, the proof is in the pudding. Mullin looks overwhelmed and in way over his head, because he is.

Just curious. Didn't you want Lavin fired? Who are you replacing Mullin with?

LoVett and Ponds are both well ahead of where Whitehead was as a freshman. He was terrible early on. I remember being glad he didn't pick SJ. Then eventually he blossomed. LoVett and Ponds are instant beasts. They just have the feel of the game in their DNA. They make shots. They are playmakers instantly. I haven't looked but I'd gladly compare Whitehead's best season with what our 2 freshman guards are doing right now as freshmen. I think they will be quite comparable if not better. The irony is that LoVett and Ponds prove that experience isn't everything. Some players come ready to play. We also had Harkless who was a 1 and done. The only thing Whitehead had over our guards was size and better defense but our guys will get better on D. Offensively they are interchangeable.

Who would I replace Mullin with? I'd see if I could get Archie Miller, Dan Hurley, Steve Masiello, Gregg Marshall, etc. Not saying any would say yes but they would all come with lots of head coaching experience and know what it takes to win. I'd also get a guy who knows how to coach bigs. I'd keep Matt A and hope he stays. Wish we took Piekell from Stony Brook and now at Rutgers. The point is, there are better options out there.

I totally butchered my spelling and grammar in my above posts...still waking up apparently.

[BigmanU]

The last loss was without Lovett correct?

This season you have to remember, this is a whole new backcourt (with 1st year college players!!!!) which will take time to gel. The backcourt is the hardest piece to implement because they always handle the ball. Mullin has great pieces in place and will upset teams some days and make him pull his hair out the next. That's what 1st year back courts do.

[Bill Marsh]

The bottom line is St. John's made a PR hire instead of a basketball hire. Chris Mullin came into this job as the biggest name in St. John's basketball, but with zero head coaching experience. I can't imagine the SJU athletic department expects him to have the Johnnies in the tournament in his first 4 or 5 years. Fans may not like it, but the Mullin project needs to be a long term, learning on the job type project.

Bringing in an experienced head coach (even from a mid major) and giving 4 years to get in the tourney is one thing. Giving that same ultimatum to somebody who never coached a basketball game before in his life isn't fair.

I'm guessing that the PR aspect was expected to pay off in recruiting, which is a big part of the coaching piece in college. Failure to establish connections with the NYC HS and AAU coaching community has been a big area of concern with the last few coaches. I think that Mullin's stature within the basketball community enabled him to attract assistants who never would have come to SJU with anyone else.

So, yes, PR but with a wider reach than just publicity and headlines. I think they were sending a message.

[Hall2012]

The bottom line is St. John's made a PR hire instead of a basketball hire. Chris Mullin came into this job as the biggest name in St. John's basketball, but with zero head coaching experience. I can't imagine the SJU athletic department expects him to have the Johnnies in the tournament in his first 4 or 5 years. Fans may not like it, but the Mullin project needs to be a long term, learning on the job type project.

Bringing in an experienced head coach (even from a mid major) and giving 4 years to get in the tourney is one thing. Giving that same ultimatum to somebody who never coached a basketball game before in his life isn't fair.

I'm guessing that the PR aspect was expected to pay off in recruiting, which is a big part of the coaching piece in college. Failure to establish connections with the NYC HS and AAU coaching community has been a big area of concern with the last few coaches. I think that Mullin's stature within the basketball community enabled him to attract assistants who never would have come to SJU with anyone else.

So, yes, PR but with a wider reach than just publicity and headlines. I think they were sending a message.

Yes I agree, and really it's been so far so good on that side of things. But they knew what they were getting when they hired him, so I'd expect a fairly long leash on the x's and o's/player development side.

[REDMEN1415]

I'm sorry but I just cannot except the platitudes anymore. Wait until next year. They are young! The year after next will be great! The truth is that we are told to wait and wait and wait and nothing every actually materializes. If this was a truly untalented team like last year, I could understand the lumps. It just wasn't there. But the talent was upgraded significantly...and somehow we have found a way to do WORSE to this point than we were last year. Let me repeat that for those still drinking their coffee...we are actually worse record wise right now than at this point last year. That was the worst team ever in our 100+ year history. And we are doing worse than that this year so far. Who do you blame for that other than the coach? As you get more talent and more experience, you are supposed to clearly improve. If that does not happen it suggests some level of incompetence. Like I've said and others have said...whatever "it" is....SJ just doesn't have it. You can feel it in your gut. You just know something's not right and I got the same feeling early on with Lavin. We hear time and time again about our youth and that once they are seniors they will magically turn into butterflies instead of remaining caterpillars. The standard for success in this program is now this: making the tourney once every 4 years (because remember they shouldn't be expected to win until they are seniors) and MAYBE winning a game. That is atrocious. Other teams have young players and they win every single year no matter how many of the players graduate, leave early for the NBA, or transfer. It's a myth that you can only expect teams to be good once every 4 years. Darien Williams is not a freshman, nor is Mussini, Yakwe, nor was Sima, nor is Owens, or Ahmed, or Amar. When you add much more talent and get another year of experience, you are expected to improve and that is not happening. What is so controversial about that? I get losing to MSU, Minny, even VCU. But man, to lose to Delaware State (with LoVett), barely get by CSUN, and now lose to LIU which is close to #300 Kenpom, the proof is in the pudding. Mullin looks overwhelmed and in way over his head, because he is.

Just curious. Didn't you want Lavin fired? Who are you replacing Mullin with?

[Bill Marsh]

I'm sorry but I just cannot except the platitudes anymore. Wait until next year. They are young! The year after next will be great! The truth is that we are told to wait and wait and wait and nothing every actually materializes. If this was a truly untalented team like last year, I could understand the lumps. It just wasn't there. But the talent was upgraded significantly...and somehow we have found a way to do WORSE to this point than we were last year. Let me repeat that for those still drinking their coffee...we are actually worse record wise right now than at this point last year. That was the worst team ever in our 100+ year history. And we are doing worse than that this year so far. Who do you blame for that other than the coach? As you get more talent and more experience, you are supposed to clearly improve. If that does not happen it suggests some level of incompetence. Like I've said and others have said...whatever "it" is....SJ just doesn't have it. You can feel it in your gut. You just know something's not right and I got the same feeling early on with Lavin. We hear time and time again about our youth and that once they are seniors they will magically turn into butterflies instead of remaining caterpillars. The standard for success in this program is now this: making the tourney once every 4 years (because remember they shouldn't be expected to win until they are seniors) and MAYBE winning a game. That is atrocious. Other teams have young players and they win every single year no matter how many of the players graduate, leave early for the NBA, or transfer. It's a myth that you can only expect teams to be good once every 4 years. Darien Williams is not a freshman, nor is Mussini, Yakwe, nor was Sima, nor is Owens, or Ahmed, or Amar. When you add much more talent and get another year of experience, you are expected to improve and that is not happening. What is so controversial about that? I get losing to MSU, Minny, even VCU. But man, to lose to Delaware State (with LoVett), barely get by CSUN, and now lose to LIU which is close to #300 Kenpom, the proof is in the pudding. Mullin looks overwhelmed and in way over his head, because he is.

Just curious. Didn't you want Lavin fired? Who are you replacing Mullin with?

LoVett and Ponds are both well ahead of where Whitehead was as a freshman. He was terrible early on. I remember being glad he didn't pick SJ. Then eventually he blossomed. LoVett and Ponds are instant beasts. They just have the feel of the game in their DNA. They make shots. They are playmakers instantly. I haven't looked but I'd gladly compare Whitehead's best season with what our 2 freshman guards are doing right now as freshmen. I think they will be quite comparable if not better. The irony is that LoVett and Ponds prove that experience isn't everything. Some players come ready to play. We also had Harkless who was a 1 and done. The only thing Whitehead had over our guards was size and better defense but our guys will get better on D. Offensively they are interchangeable.

Who would I replace Mullin with? I'd see if I could get Archie Miller, Dan Hurley, Steve Masiello, Gregg Marshall, etc. Not saying any would say yes but they would all come with lots of head coaching experience and know what it takes to win. I'd also get a guy who knows how to coach bigs. I'd keep Matt A and hope he stays. Wish we took Piekell from Stony Brook and now at Rutgers. The point is, there are better options out there.

I totally butchered my spelling and grammar in my above posts...still waking up apparently.

Thanks for the list of coaches. Those would all certainly be good picks. I like the direction in which you're thinking.

Just for some perspective, I'll refer to a preseason article that was in one of the local papers about 6 weeks ago, previewing all the local teams. In that article, Massiello said he was very high on his Manhattan team this year, predictingthat they would go to the Sweet 16. I invite you to take. A look at Manhattan's record so far this year. It's been an utter disaster. They've playing like. The worst team in the MAAC, anything but a Sweet 16 contender. Obviously Massiello thought he has the talent to make some noise this year, but they're not. Maybe they will, but it is an example of how even the top coaches on your list can suffer an unkind fate from time to time. Things can take longer to come together than even the coach thinks they will.

Your comparison of Lovett and Ponds to Whitehead focuses on offense. There is no doubt that it took Whitehead time to get into the offensive flow as a freshman and to adapt to the team concept. Way to much 1 on 1. You throw in size and defense almost as an afterthought. What are St John's biggest problems this year? Defending and developing an inside game. Different players are ready with different parts of the game sooner than others. Rarely do rookies have the whole package put together. Whitehead's defense was great from the beginning and he was able to help out with the inside game. BTW, he did score a little bit too despite his mistakes. He was an immense talent and his presence on the court mattered. His presence in the locker room is another story.