Rank These Coaches...

[stever20]

so lets look at this objectively.....
here's each programs top 50 wins($), top 25 wins($$), sub 100 losses(?), sub 200 losses(??) for the last 3 years plus this year so far...

Butler
14-15 UNC $$
14-15 Georgetown $$(in that exempt tourney)
15-16 Cincy $
15-16 Purdue $$
16-17 Northwestern $
16-17 Arizona $$
4 top 25 wins, 6 top 50 wins. 0 bad losses

Creighton:
13-14 Arizona St $
14-15 Oklahoma $$
14-15 North Texas ??
15-16 Loyola(Il) ?
16-17 Wisconsin $$
3 top 25 wins, 4 top 50 wins. 1 awful loss.

DePaul
13-14 Illinois St ?
14-15 Stanford $
14-15 Oregon St ?
14-15 Ohio ??
14-15 Loyola Marymount ??
15-16 Penn St ?
15-16 Stanford ?
16-17 Rutgers ?
1 top 50 win, 5 bad losses. 2 awful losses.

Georgetown
13-14 Northeastern ??
13-14 Kansas St $
13-14 VCU $$
13-14 Mich St $$
14-15 Florida $
14-15 Indiana $
15-16 Radford ?
15-16 Wisconsin $
15-16 Syracuse $
15-16 UNC Asheville ?
16-17 Arkansas St ?
16-17 Oregon $$
3 top 25 wins, 8 top 50 wins, 3 bad losses, 1 awful loss

Marquette
13-14 George Washington $
14-15 Omaha ??
15-16 Belmont ?
15-16 Wisconsin $
2 top 50 wins, 1 bad loss, 1 awful loss

Providence
14-15 Notre Dame $$
14-15 Boston College ?
14-15 Brown ??
14-15 Miami $
15-16 Arizona $$
2 top 25 wins, 3 top 50 wins, 1 bad loss, 1 awful loss

Seton Hall
13-14 Farleigh Dickinson ??
13-14 St Peters ??
15-16 Long Beach St ?
15-16 Wichita St $$
1 top 25 win, 1 top 50 win, 1 bad loss, 2 awful losses

St John's
15-16 Fordham ?
15-16 Syracuse $
15-16 Incarnate Word ??
15-16 NJIT ??
16-17 Delaware St ??
1 top 50 win, 1 bad loss, 3 awful losses

Villanova
13-14 Kansas $$
13-14 Iowa $$
14-15 VCU $
15-16 St Joe's $
16-17 Purdue $$
3 top 25 wins, 5 top 50 wins

Xavier
13-14 Tennessee $$
13-14 USC ?
13-14 Cincy $
14-15 Long Beach St ?
14-15 Cincy $
15-16 Michigan $
15-16 USC $
15-16 Cincy $
16-17 Clemson $
1 top 25 win, 8 top 50 wins, 1 bad loss

so summaries:
Butler:4 top 25 wins, 6 top 50 wins. 0 bad losses
Creighton: 3 top 25 wins, 4 top 50 wins. 1 awful loss.
DePaul: 1 top 50 win, 5 bad losses. 2 awful losses.
Georgetown: 3 top 25 wins, 8 top 50 wins, 3 bad losses, 1 awful loss
Marquette: 2 top 50 wins, 1 bad loss, 1 awful loss
Providence: 2 top 25 wins, 3 top 50 wins, 1 bad loss, 1 awful loss
Seton Hall: 1 top 25 win, 1 top 50 win, 1 bad loss, 2 awful losses
St John's: 1 top 50 win, 1 bad loss, 3 awful losses
Villanova: 3 top 25 wins, 5 top 50 wins
Xavier: 1 top 25 win, 8 top 50 wins, 1 bad loss

[GumbyDamnit!]

Some of these bad losses are much worse then others. I wouldn't call any Power 6 loss a bad loss.

BC
Tulsa
Even UTEP

You have Top 150 RPI teams (guessing) in here with some real dogs....

This just shows how dumb labels are...

First off, by your labels, BC isn't a bad loss because it's a P6. But you are helping me actually prove my point....

The BC loss- by Providence in '15.... BC was ranked #110 in Ken Pom.
The Tulsa loss- by Creighton in '15. Tulsa was ranked #85 in Ken Pom.

So why is the BC loss a better loss than the Tulsa loss? Just because of a stupid label?

Also lets look at '15 Xavier.....
Billyjack bolded UTEP as a bad loss, but didn't bold Auburn
UTEP that year in KP 97, Auburn 139
so which one was the worse loss?

BE fans hate when the P5 label is thrown out, but they are quick to throw out the P6 label if it includes the Big East.

Agree.

Look at record vs. RPI to see what's a good loss or a bad loss. Here are the 6 teams in the middle of the BE since inception:

Last 3 years vs RPI Top 50, with losses vs. RPI 150+ in parentheses:

Seton Hall: 13-21 = .382 (7)
Creighton: 13-26 = .333 (3)
Providence: 11-21 = .333 (3)
Georgetown: 12-28 = .300 (3)
Butler: 10-25 = .286 (1)
Marquette: 7-35 = .167 (4)


Points of reference (others vs Top 50):
Nova: 26-9 = .743
X: 19-16 = .543
SJU: 6-26 = .188
DePaul: 3-31 = .088

I think this is just a matter of high expectations for JT3 & Georgetown. Have they been Georgetown-like? No. Have they been "truly awful?" No. Give him this year. The Maryland loss was a debacle that may have cost them two games. But a neutral W vs. Oregon will serve them well in March. Losing to Wisconsin is not a bad loss and Okl St may have been a coin flip. You hope you win that but, you didn't. With what the top 4 of us are doing so far G'town will have at least 8 chances to get a Top 25/50 win. What if they get 3 wins out of those and then perhaps another in the BET. 4-5 top 25 wins could get them in the tourney.

[stever20]

ok, so you say Georgetown goes 3-5 vs the top 4 teams.
then goes 1-1 in the BET.

so 4-6 there....

Already 10 losses there.

Then add in 1 more presumably vs Syracuse. That's 11...

Georgetown would have to go pretty close to 8-2 or better vs rest of the BE to feel really good about making the tourney. Anything worse than that and you are at 14 losses, and that's when things get really dicey.

[Jet915]

Comparing other Big East teams to Georgetown (other than Nova/Marquette) are comparing apples and oranges. Georgetown is a BRAND NAME. They have won a national championship. They play in a recruiting hotbed. They should be making the NCAA tournament every year and ranked most years. What they are doing now, losing season last year and the bad start this year are not acceptable to Georgetown standards.

[stever20]

my chart captured perfectly Georgetown's problems....

the most top wins of any team OOC in the NBE. 11.
but also tied for 2nd most in the NBE in bad/awful losses with 4. Only DePaul with more.

Butler and Nova only 2 teams without any bad losses OOC in the period. (I know i'm gonna get flamed if they take a bad one here in the next month now).

looking at the nets-
Butler 10-0
Creighton 7-1
DePaul 1-7
Georgetown 11-4
Marquette 2-2
Providence 5-2
Seton Hall 2-3
St John's 1-4
Villanova 8-0
Xavier 9-1

[GumbyDamnit!]

ok, so you say Georgetown goes 3-5 vs the top 4 teams.
then goes 1-1 in the BET.

so 4-6 there....

Already 10 losses there.

Then add in 1 more presumably vs Syracuse. That's 11...

Georgetown would have to go pretty close to 8-2 or better vs rest of the BE to feel really good about making the tourney. Anything worse than that and you are at 14 losses, and that's when things get really dicey.

In 2012-13 Villanova beat one Top 100 RPI team OOC (#82), and had 4 OOC losses including to #273 Columbia, and they finished 10-8 /11-9, tied for 7th in conference. It was not exactly a blazing record heading into the tourney at 20-13. They were a 9 seed. Why? Because they beat Louisville, Syracuse and G'town on their home floor and all of those teams were ranked in the Top 10.

Teams that can demonstrate they can beat top teams usually get the benefit of the doubt. If G'town finishes somewhere around 18-20 wins but they knock off Nova, Xavier, Creighton, along with the Oregon and that's going to be really tough keeping them out IMO. What if you add Butler to that list? Point is, no one knows for sure what might happen.

[stever20]

ok, so you say Georgetown goes 3-5 vs the top 4 teams.
then goes 1-1 in the BET.

so 4-6 there....

Already 10 losses there.

Then add in 1 more presumably vs Syracuse. That's 11...

Georgetown would have to go pretty close to 8-2 or better vs rest of the BE to feel really good about making the tourney. Anything worse than that and you are at 14 losses, and that's when things get really dicey.

In 2012-13 Villanova beat one Top 100 RPI team OOC (#82), and had 4 OOC losses including to #273 Columbia, and they finished 10-8 /11-9, tied for 7th in conference. It was not exactly a blazing record heading into the tourney at 20-13. They were a 9 seed. Why? Because they beat Louisville, Syracuse and G'town on their home floor and all of those teams were ranked in the Top 10.

Teams that can demonstrate they can beat top teams usually get the benefit of the doubt. If G'town finishes somewhere around 18-20 wins but they knock off Nova, Xavier, Creighton, along with the Oregon and that's going to be really tough keeping them out IMO. What if you add Butler to that list? Point is, no one knows for sure what might happen.

well like I said, if we go 3-5 vs those top 4 teams- then 8-2 vs the rest, then go 1-1 in the tourney with another top win- that's a record of 8-5 OOC, 11-7 in conference, 1-1 in conference tourney. That's 20-13. That would be pretty safe. But anything worse than that you get pretty dicey. 19-14 may get in. But I'm highly doubtful about 18-15, even with all the good wins.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Comparing other Big East teams to Georgetown (other than Nova/Marquette) are comparing apples and oranges. Georgetown is a BRAND NAME. They have won a national championship. They play in a recruiting hotbed. They should be making the NCAA tournament every year and ranked most years. What they are doing now, losing season last year and the bad start this year are not acceptable to Georgetown standards.

I guess that is my point Jet. We're holding JT3 to a standard because of what his father did in the 80's. Georgetown was not UCLA in the 60 & 70's. They did not win a single NCAA tournament game between 1944 and 1979. JT2 shows up and makes them a monster. He leaves and they're not the same. But we all have this raised expectation that they should be the same. SHU, PC, DePaul, SJU all exist in a recruiting hotbed. That alone doesn't equate success as DePaul has demonstrated.

My guess is that at some point Alums are going to start mumbling about their beloved Hoyas if they continue to flounder. But he continues to recruit well so maybe he can turn this thing around. My only point is that to say that he is awful when he has performed comparably to his peers not named Wright or Mack, is not a fair assessment IMO. I think if he misses the tourney this year, next year will be do or die for him.

[MUBoxer]

....Form best to worst:

A) JT3
B) Wojo
c) Mullin


It pains me that the above guys represent the schools that they do. When it was announced that we were entering the Big East, I was excited that we would get to play these historically great basketball schools twice a year. At this point, however, each of the schools does anything but excite. The problem with each of the programs right now is the exact same across the board - poor coaching. I'd add Willard to the list as I think he is a poor coach as well, but at least Seton Hall is competitive right now.

Umm maybe wait a bit on Wojo? If you don't remember he split with you guys (could've very very easily been a sweep of you guys if Ellenson had a defensive bone in his body) and won 20 games in his second year. Jesus were you ready to break out the pitchfork when Creighton hired a coach that shat the bed at Iowa State? Do you not realize he was hired for his pedigree at Northern iowa where he went 11-17 and 14-15 his first two years? Maybe wait a second before tossing Wojo to the wolves because in his second year he did a heck of a lot better than the guy your school's fans anoint as one of the great BE coaches.

[redmen9194]

It's way too early on Mullin.