The Holy Land of Hoops

Returning home from Hinkle, I was anxious to see the reactions to this game on twitter and the forums... I'm sure this won't go over well with some of you, but I have to say that after watching and/or attending nearly every BU game over the past 15 years or so, I think this St. John's team was the most undisciplined and immature team I have ever watched Butler play. From the constant arguing with referee's, cheap shots, flops, jawing with opposing team (and their own), staring down the fans, reacting verbally to the fans, and mannerisms on the bench - they were simply on another level tonight.

I can't say that this was indicative of their team on a nightly basis, but I have to say that I have seen plenty of comments about their game discipline, and remember first hand how Harrison is one to interact with the fans in a negative way.

I'm not sure if this is a reflection of the coach, or the type of people/players that they are and simply haven't been reigned in on this team, but I have to think that they were an embarrassment to their fans tonight!

The sad thing is that, on paper, in the recruiting rankings, and sometimes flashes on the court, this team seemed to have the talent and athleticism to score at will at times. I guess its just in stark contrast to watching what Butler can do with a "less talented" and "less athletic" group of players.

Part of this is on Lavin and the players are frustrated they are seniors and will never smell a tourney bid. Easy to see why they'd be so angry with nothing but top 100 players including 4 and 5 stars and not 1 tourney berth to show for it. Year after year. The other part is cultural. Not to get too deep into it because it gets controversial here, but Butler/Creighton are very different cultures. You have lots of white kids from farms. We are a NYC team full of kids from the inner cities. Trash talking is well-known as a New York thing. Cocky, flashy, in your face. That's just how it is.

SJHooper wrote:Part of this is on Lavin and the players are frustrated they are seniors and will never smell a tourney bid. Easy to see why they'd be so angry with nothing but top 100 players including 4 and 5 stars and not 1 tourney berth to show for it. Year after year. The other part is cultural. Not to get too deep into it because it gets controversial here, but Butler/Creighton are very different cultures. You have lots of white kids from farms. We are a NYC team full of kids from the inner cities. Trash talking is well-known as a New York thing. Cocky, flashy, in your face. That's just how it is.

"Not to get too deep into it . . ." But you just did.

I get your point. White kids never fight with each other. That's why there are never brawls in baseball unless they're instigated by Latinos. And did you notice that in the fight at the end of the Super Bowl that it was only black players throwing punches while the white guys were holding hands and singing Kumbaya?

While I'm digressing on the Super Bowl, I have to say that there's nothing dumber than a fight in a football game. I forget who it was, but early in that fight, one player punched another player in the helmet. I thought he might have broken his hand.

Lavin has lost control of his players. Any word on if he is returning next year or are they going to buy out his remaining contract? Firing a possibility?

Get over it. Oh and a Butler player was T'd up last night as well if you forgot with all your hand wringing.

SJHooper wrote:Part of this is on Lavin and the players are frustrated they are seniors and will never smell a tourney bid. Easy to see why they'd be so angry with nothing but top 100 players including 4 and 5 stars and not 1 tourney berth to show for it. Year after year. The other part is cultural. Not to get too deep into it because it gets controversial here, but Butler/Creighton are very different cultures. You have lots of white kids from farms. We are a NYC team full of kids from the inner cities. Trash talking is well-known as a New York thing. Cocky, flashy, in your face. That's just how it is.

Your first point might be on target but I don't agree with the 2nd one at all. Nova has brought in tough urban NE kids but Jay W. has built a culture that will not tolerate thuggery or trash talking, or whining with the refs. Other BE programs are similar; PC and Seton Hall have tough NE kids too. Stop with it's a "NYC vs. rural Indy crap." JVP is a NY kid, and is as tough as they come but he lets his play do the talking.

Let me also say that I probably root for SJU more than any other BE team not named Nova. I do believe a good SJU is good for the BE conference. With that said, I was 5th row at MSG this year and witnessed first hand DH talking to anyone around the court who would listen. Nothing about how the team was going to beat Nova. It was all about him: "You saw that right...this boy can't stop me" (that to fans, to Raf, to the ref, to himself, etc.) after every basket. And after every miss: "C'mon man, that's a foul" to the ref or anyone else who would listen. Other players on SJU started to take that queue and started getting involved. Before you know it every play was an individual celebration and every call against them a gross injustice. And what I noticed is not one Nova player ever engaged them. They all just kind of looked at them with blank stares when they would talk trash, not say anything and keep playing hard. Talking trash to a team that has beaten you something like 8 of the last 9 times, seems kind of silly don't you think. When the game turned there was no chest pounding or loud roars or anything that could be mistaken for trying to show up the SJU team from the Nova side.

Players respond to culture and culture is created by head coaches. John Thompson Jr wanted to be the Alpha Dog in college hoops so he created that G'town culture in the 80's, and the players followed suit and acted the thug at times in order to intimidate teams. It worked. For SJU I think it is doing the opposite. It's causing the team to lose composure and play undisciplined. They better get their sh!t together quickly.

Not sure but I think Hooper might be a closet racist. As a midwestern farm boy, I would know.

While the performance last night by St. John's was embarrassing, let's not get too far afield here. Trash talking? This is the Big East, it's how these schools roll and have rolled for decades. Jones laughing and clapping at Sir Dom after the tech was not trash talking or taunting? Sure it was. But this is the Big East and you need to handle it. The shot by Obekpa was cheap and he deserved to be tossed. But, there has been much worse in this league over the years. Butler fans should not be so offended. The game was handled properly by the refs, the Johnnies got the thumping they deserved, and everybody moves on. When the Johnnies and Cuse came to blows in December after a flagrent 1 foul on Rysheed Jordan, Jim Boeheim was asked about it after in light of no ejections. He basically said it was a Big East type game - no ejections needed - we just want to play. Again, Obekpa should have been ejected, but you move on. You should check out Requiem for the Big East. Lots of what Louie Carnesecca called just a "subway tap". I hate the flop as well - ridiculous. I would bench Pointer for part of Saturday's game for it. But I've seen Doug McDermott take his share of flops as well, he's just a better actor than Pointer. So relax Butler and enjoy your season. You are doing well.

Professor_Bulldog wrote:Not sure but I think Hooper might be a closet racist. As a midwestern farm boy, I would know.

I was going to answer him, but I was too busy milking the cows with all the Creighton players!

Professor_Bulldog wrote:Not sure but I think Hooper might be a closet racist. As a midwestern farm boy, I would know.

Nothing closet about it.