Why The Big East Won't Expand - - Round Robin

[DudeAnon]

If/when the Big East decides to expand, is there any other conference it can look to add from other than the WCC, Horizon, Missouri Valley or the A-10? It doesn't look like they can get a P5 school anytime soon.

Not really. People need to remember that we are underdogs in the NCAA world, so its not like football schools are coming knocking at the door. We pretty much have our pick of the non-football schools and then can wait to see who gets left out in the cold after the next P5 shift (UConn possibly).

[Bill Marsh]

Well, yes, I'd agree. In fact, I'd go even further and eliminate any FBS school completely - there's just too much invested for every FBS school to not put their football program first.

There are some on here who laugh off the notion of public schools citing a "possibility" of starting football (as opposed to institutional difference, which I can understand) - but are the first to jump at a BCS school fantasy.

Starting a football program costs 50-100 million, if it wants to be successful. No BCS level program will give up what they have invested, football is too valuable.

Only idiots are worried about you guys starting football. I'm much more interested in what schools will become available as the P5 start seperating themselves and schools realize the economics of football are not sustainable (they're really not right now for most). Could Memphis be available some day? I see Cincy and UConn eventually getting in, but a school like Memphis could easily be left out.

But why would the Big East want a corrupt program like Memphis? They're only successful when they're cheating, as was the case with their 2 most recent Final Fours. Both were later vacated for cheating.

[Bill Marsh]

Don't get me wrong - I love Gonzaga as a school. If it were located anywhere east of Omaha or, heck, even in Denver, then it would be a no-brainer decision. However, I think the Big East wants to be more than just a basketball league. I think that the university presidents have visions of the Big East brand eventually being to private urban universities in the eastern half of the US what the Big Ten is to large research universities in that same footprint. This includes a geographical component in order to enhance network effects. Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's grads cross paths in real life (not just "sports life"), and the same is with DePaul, Marquette and Butler. That's what takes a league from being merely a basketball league to a brand that's much larger.

Okay, I see where you're going with this, Frank. "Think like a college president." Right? They certainly had that in the old Big East. All those schools fed into NYC and basketball games were always the college hoops talk around the water cooler the day after the games whether it was in offices on Wall Street or up town.

If that's their thinking, then they should add Fordham and Holy Cross. Loyola in Chicago? Or Baltimore? But then there's the basketball thing. Sustained hoops success has to be part of the profile. I just don't see who has that in the footprint. St. Louis and Dayton have been kicked around as candidates in the Midwest, but they are really just middling programs with more downs than ups and no ability to sustain it when they are up.

The East is even worse where there absolutely are no candidates outside the existing markets. Richmond? Culturally very different and their grads don't really cross paths very much with BE Catholic school grads. After all, this is the capitol of the Confederacy and Richmond caters to the elite families of the Old South.

I don't se how Gonzaga threatens any of that. The conference still has its base in NYC and it's base in Chicago. Gonzaga just adds spice to the stew. Yes, the geography is unorthodox, but it is doable. I do understand the obstacles. Frankly, if they're too much, then I really don't see anyone else who fits the profile - even when I try to think like a college president.

Thanks for your thoughts. Good insights.

[gtmoBlue]

If/when the Big East decides to expand, is there any other conference it can look to add from other than the WCC, Horizon, Missouri Valley or the A-10? It doesn't look like they can get a P5 school anytime soon.

Not really. People need to remember that we are underdogs in the NCAA world, so its not like football schools are coming knocking at the door. We pretty much have our pick of the non-football schools and then can wait to see who gets left out in the cold after the next P5 shift (UConn possibly).

This is the very thing Frank was referring to.

1) Slim pickings from Mid-major conferences of which the Zags are a logical pick.
The A-10 schools don't measure up.

Exceptions- WCC: Zags, BYU, St Mary's,
MVC: Wichita
AAC: Memphis, Cincy, Temple, UConn

BYU and the AAC quartet have been ruled out by most of you due to football.
Wake Forest/UAB are dropping football but don't move the needle as good additions.
Now you folks say no F5/P5 castoffs? In the next breath you state to wait for fallout from the Football 5's next round of shake ups?

2) The most likely F5/P5 castoffs will be either in the B12 or ACC. When UT (and Ok/Ok St) decide to go that will leave 6-7 schools flapping in the breeze. You're saying not to consider the KU/K St pkg?
When the B1G raids the ACC for 2 more schools, adding turmoil to the ACC, along with sanctions against UNC. You're saying no to considering a Duke, ND, and WF?

If ex P5 schools are automatically excluded, then all that's left is Gonzaga, St Mary's, Wichita, and maybe Temple.
Not much of a selection. If this is all that's available, what are we waiting for?

[DudeAnon]

If/when the Big East decides to expand, is there any other conference it can look to add from other than the WCC, Horizon, Missouri Valley or the A-10? It doesn't look like they can get a P5 school anytime soon.

Not really. People need to remember that we are underdogs in the NCAA world, so its not like football schools are coming knocking at the door. We pretty much have our pick of the non-football schools and then can wait to see who gets left out in the cold after the next P5 shift (UConn possibly).

This is the very thing Frank was referring to.

1) Slim pickings from Mid-major conferences of which the Zags are a logical pick.
The A-10 schools don't measure up.

Exceptions- WCC: Zags, BYU, St Mary's,
MVC: Wichita
AAC: Memphis, Cincy, Temple, UConn

BYU and the AAC quartet have been ruled out by most of you due to football.
Wake Forest/UAB are dropping football but don't move the needle as good additions.
Now you folks say no F5/P5 castoffs? In the next breath you state to wait for fallout from the Football 5's next round of shake ups?

2) The most likely F5/P5 castoffs will be either in the B12 or ACC. When UT (and Ok/Ok St) decide to go that will leave 6-7 schools flapping in the breeze. You're saying not to consider the KU/K St pkg?
When the B1G raids the ACC for 2 more schools, adding turmoil to the ACC, along with sanctions against UNC. You're saying no to considering a Duke, ND, and WF?

If ex P5 schools are automatically excluded, then all that's left is Gonzaga, St Mary's, Wichita, and maybe Temple.
Not much of a selection. If this is all that's available, what are we waiting for?

I have never heard someone mention the possibility that current P5 schools could get left out after the next big shift. If that happens, of course we make a run at em' but you are the first person I have heard talk about that possibility. All I hear about is the 4x16 that seems to be inevitably coming, which I guess would leave some P5 schools out in the cold. Just never thought about it really.

[GoldenWarrior11]

The top basketball programs that are not in the P5, in my particular order:

UConn (AAC) - They won't drop football, but it is a pipe dream to lock up the East coast. They have history with St. Johns, Georgetown, Seton Hall and Providence. Would help tournament at MSG. No real negatives from the Big East's perspective. It will be tremendously difficult for them to even consider dropping football.
Gonzaga (WCC) - The fact that they are in Washington doesn't really matter. Transportation is different today than it was 20 years ago (and will be different 20 years from now). Institutional fit, basketball fit. Their fans travel really well.
BYU (WCC) - Yes, they play football. No, they don't belong in a football conference. Like ND, they value conference independence. They travel extremely well. Has made NCAA Tournament 24 times.
Saint Louis (A10) - Institutional fit. Geographic fit. New big market to tap into. If they were to get into the Big East, they would need new coach to lead them to next level. Crews doesn't look like he can win without Majerus' guys.
VCU (A10) - Brand-name head coach. Recent tournament success. New market. Not an institutional fit, but committed to supporting elite basketball program. Great fan-base. East coast school.
Temple (AAC) - This may be a shocking recommendation, but, personally, I believe they are closer to shutting down their football program than UConn is (or ever will be). They have already shut down several sports due to cost concerns, and they don't have any plans to build an on-campus stadium. Temple wouldn't add any market, but they are a tremendous basketball program. Although there is no recent tournament success, they made five Elite Eights in a 13-year stretch.
Dayton (A10) - Institutional fit. Recent basketball success is in their favor. Unfortunately, they double-up the Ohio market. I would think the Presidents and Fox executives would value Philadelphia's dual-market instead, personally.
Davidson (A10) - Private school. Tremendous basketball success, at least in regular season. Would be interesting to see competing against other top-flight programs on regular basis.

I would've included Memphis, but, given their recent football success, I just don't see any plausible scenario where they would consider the Big East (not that UConn/Temple would, but I could see certain scenarios where they would have to drop down football).

[Gopher+RamFan]

If/when the Big East decides to expand, is there any other conference it can look to add from other than the WCC, Horizon, Missouri Valley or the A-10? It doesn't look like they can get a P5 school anytime soon.

Not really. People need to remember that we are underdogs in the NCAA world, so its not like football schools are coming knocking at the door. We pretty much have our pick of the non-football schools and then can wait to see who gets left out in the cold after the next P5 shift (UConn possibly).

This is the very thing Frank was referring to.

1) Slim pickings from Mid-major conferences of which the Zags are a logical pick.
The A-10 schools don't measure up.

Exceptions- WCC: Zags, BYU, St Mary's,
MVC: Wichita
AAC: Memphis, Cincy, Temple, UConn

BYU and the AAC quartet have been ruled out by most of you due to football.
Wake Forest/UAB are dropping football but don't move the needle as good additions.
Now you folks say no F5/P5 castoffs? In the next breath you state to wait for fallout from the Football 5's next round of shake ups?

2) The most likely F5/P5 castoffs will be either in the B12 or ACC. When UT (and Ok/Ok St) decide to go that will leave 6-7 schools flapping in the breeze. You're saying not to consider the KU/K St pkg?
When the B1G raids the ACC for 2 more schools, adding turmoil to the ACC, along with sanctions against UNC. You're saying no to considering a Duke, ND, and WF?

If ex P5 schools are automatically excluded, then all that's left is Gonzaga, St Mary's, Wichita, and maybe Temple.
Not much of a selection. If this is all that's available, what are we waiting for?

Really curious as to why you have Wichita in there as a prospect, but leave out A10 schools? Public institution, recent success. Both WSU and VCU have around $5 million budgeted for Basketball.

A P5 program will not be left out of the cold - not even if the B12 splits. The money is too good.

[TBC Alum]

I have never heard someone mention the possibility that current P5 schools could get left out after the next big shift. If that happens, of course we make a run at em' but you are the first person I have heard talk about that possibility. All I hear about is the 4x16 that seems to be inevitably coming, which I guess would leave some P5 schools out in the cold. Just never thought about it really.

There was quite a bit of talk about it several years ago when the 4X16 ideas were first being floated on the interweb. A very common idea was to gut the Big 12 with schools mainly going to the PAC and SEC. Can't remember the specifics of who went where other than there were 65 teams for 64 spots and that Iowa State or Kansas seemed to be the odd team out.

Granted this was a couple of years ago and not much has been mentioned of the 65 for 64 spots since.

[gtmoBlue]

Just be cause some of you have a shortsighted viewpoint means nothing. Anything can happen - as attested to by the very real happenings of the last 2-5 years. I agree with Frank that the Big East (we) need an active and aggressive acquisition policy. We need to be proactive and not wait for the next round of football fallout.

2 years ago Texas (and Oklahoma) were in the Pac 12 expansion discussion. Folks in the Big 12 were very alarmed as it appeared those 2 plus Ok St and Colorado were leaving the conference. At the same time Missouri had been talking with the B1G and TAMU talking with the SEC. Both Kansas schools, Missouri, Iowa St, Nebraska, and a couple of Texas schools would be left holding the bag.

As it turned out, Nebraska went to the B1G, Mizzou quickly did an about face and ran to the SEC with TAMU, Colorado (and Utah) went to the Pac 12, leaving the Kansas schools, Iowa St (all weak footballers) and 2 Texas schools. Kansas legislators were attempting to fashion some sort of package...wherever KU event, K St would be included. Don't know if that ever got worked out, since UT decided that they and the 2 Oklahoma schools would stay in the Big 12 for now.

At that time there was no indication that any of the other major football conferences were interested in weak KU/K St football. Had Texas/Oklahoma left to the Pac 12, KU would have been begging to remain a part of the Football 4. Talk then was of raiding the then C-USA and the WAC (prior to BYU's move to the WCC) to Possibly shore up a weak Big 12. Fortunately for KU, they dodged the bullet- last round. Who's to say what the next round will bring.

The BE should have All options on the table, in viewing possible expansion moves.

[Bill Marsh]

". . . even in the instances where power conferences expanded, where they supposedly "ignored geography", they were just adding an adjacent state or region." - from Frank the Tank

This is an interesting point, but is it true?

The Big East added Miami back in 1991. Maybe they weren't a power conference then. But they sure were when they added Notre Dame a few years later.

The ACC added BC back in 1994 when they certainly weren't contiguous. A few years ago they added Notre Dame when they weren't contiguous either.

The PAC XII added Colorado when they weren't contiguous. Before Colorado actually began to compete in the PAC XII, they also added Utah to make it contiguous. But wasn't that only after they struck out on adding the Texahoma schools who certainly weren't contiguous.

Finally the Big XII added West Virginia, which certainly isn't contiguous. Really only the Big Ten and the SEC were able to expand with contiguous states although there were certainly rumors that the B1G toyed with a number of candidates who would not have been so. (See Purple Book Cat and frank's own blog.)

The Big East itself added Creighton, which isn't contiguous, even though they could have gone with another school in the established footprint.

What most of these additions have shown more than anything is that additions were almost always with schools who were considered to be a good "fit" regardless of geography. Modern transportation has shrunk distances, making these geographically expanded conferences possible and distance less of a factor. In light of this, could there really be a better "fit" for the Big East than Gonzaga?