Why The Big East Won't Expand - - Round Robin

[Hoopfan]

What's more realistic is to have some type of formalized relationship with the WCC where Gonzaga, BYU and other WCC teams have a non-conference challenge with the Big East (just as it has with the Big Ten). This could even be in January or February after the conference season starts (which is what the SEC and Big 12 are doing for their challenge starting next year). That would provide more basketball TV inventory for the league without burdening all of the other sports.

As for the OP topic, the existence of the round robin ought to be the *least* compelling reason to not expand. At best, it's a by-product of a 10-team conference. It should NOT be a driving factor when looking at the long-term strength of this conference based on demographics and media markets. How much fans and coaches like the Big 12 and Big East round-robin scheduling is irrelevant - there's a certain strength in numbers when it comes to media and demographic power, which is why the truly powerful conferences have expanded while the weakest one of the top group (the Big 12) contracted. Waiting for perfection in expansion is a dangerous game, as the Big 12 learned when they thought they deluded themselves into thinking that they could get Florida State and Clemson instead of adding Louisville (who they would have added in a *heartbeat* if they could go back in time). The Big East has the power to be the aggressor right now at the non-FBS level, but complacency has proven to be a long-term loser in conference realignment (as the football Big East itself showed). Deluding themselves into thinking that they'll add UConn (who isn't dropping FBS football) is the same type of thinking the old Big East and current Big 12 administrations engaged in (where they were obsessed with keeping larger pieces of a smaller pie as opposed to finding ways to expand the pie to be larger in the way forward thinking leagues like the Big Ten and SEC did).

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Excellent synopsis of the current state of BE affairs, absolutely on target. You are 100% correct that complacency and waiting for a "perfect storm" has been the undoing of the B12 and the former BE.
An aggressive and proactive action plan is called for and should be implemented this year. 4 teams should be targeted and engaged in preliminary discussions - in Order: (Zags, Duke, Temple, and either WF or Vandy). The 1st pair move the needle, the 2nd pair fill the gaps. Engaging them now will give us an early lead in pre-empting
- further B1G raids on the ACC
- a post NCAA hammer on UNCs academic scandal
- a potential ACC implosion caused by both items above
- avoids waiting for football realignment crumbs to fall out

The conference now has the financial where with all, with TV money, new Nike deal, and an upcoming Multi-Media Rights deal to confidently attract, negotiate, and gain a Gonzaga, Duke, or other high profile addition to the BE. We need to begin to negotiate from our newfound strength - now, and not wait for the next round of football carnage to take football leftovers.

This may be the most idiotic post Ive seen on the topic of discussion. We're talking about the same Duke that just played in the ACC championship in football in 2013 and ranked the last 4 weeks of 2014?

[billyjack]

What's more realistic is to have some type of formalized relationship with the WCC where Gonzaga, BYU and other WCC teams have a non-conference challenge with the Big East (just as it has with the Big Ten). This could even be in January or February after the conference season starts (which is what the SEC and Big 12 are doing for their challenge starting next year). That would provide more basketball TV inventory for the league without burdening all of the other sports.

As for the OP topic, the existence of the round robin ought to be the *least* compelling reason to not expand. At best, it's a by-product of a 10-team conference. It should NOT be a driving factor when looking at the long-term strength of this conference based on demographics and media markets. How much fans and coaches like the Big 12 and Big East round-robin scheduling is irrelevant - there's a certain strength in numbers when it comes to media and demographic power, which is why the truly powerful conferences have expanded while the weakest one of the top group (the Big 12) contracted. Waiting for perfection in expansion is a dangerous game, as the Big 12 learned when they thought they deluded themselves into thinking that they could get Florida State and Clemson instead of adding Louisville (who they would have added in a *heartbeat* if they could go back in time). The Big East has the power to be the aggressor right now at the non-FBS level, but complacency has proven to be a long-term loser in conference realignment (as the football Big East itself showed). Deluding themselves into thinking that they'll add UConn (who isn't dropping FBS football) is the same type of thinking the old Big East and current Big 12 administrations engaged in (where they were obsessed with keeping larger pieces of a smaller pie as opposed to finding ways to expand the pie to be larger in the way forward thinking leagues like the Big Ten and SEC did).

.

Excellent synopsis of the current state of BE affairs, absolutely on target. You are 100% correct that complacency and waiting for a "perfect storm" has been the undoing of the B12 and the former BE.
An aggressive and proactive action plan is called for and should be implemented this year. 4 teams should be targeted and engaged in preliminary discussions - in Order: (Zags, Duke, Temple, and either WF or Vandy). The 1st pair move the needle, the 2nd pair fill the gaps. Engaging them now will give us an early lead in pre-empting
- further B1G raids on the ACC
- a post NCAA hammer on UNCs academic scandal
- a potential ACC implosion caused by both items above
- avoids waiting for football realignment crumbs to fall out

The conference now has the financial where with all, with TV money, new Nike deal, and an upcoming Multi-Media Rights deal to confidently attract, negotiate, and gain a Gonzaga, Duke, or other high profile addition to the BE. We need to begin to negotiate from our newfound strength - now, and not wait for the next round of football carnage to take football leftovers.

This may be the most idiotic post Ive seen on the topic of discussion. We're talking about the same Duke that just played in the ACC championship in football in 2013 and ranked the last 4 weeks of 2014?

Yeah, the Duke thing makes no sense.

And we'd be doing the SEC and ACC a favor in the impossible, never-happening-in-a-million-years scenario of coaxing Vandy or Wake, the two smallest, weakest schools in each conference.

There are a bunch of great hoops schools that we can invite if we ever look to expand. No football schools.

[Frank the Tank]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But you can pretty much eliminate any P5 school as a possible expansion candidate. It just ain't happening.

Well, yes, I'd agree. In fact, I'd go even further and eliminate any FBS school completely - there's just too much invested for every FBS school to not put their football program first.

[aughnanure]

A few more thoughts on this Gonzaga geography thing . . .

Every year we see teams fly to Alaska for a holiday tournament and to Hawaii for 3 others. This year DePaul was one of the teams willing to do that. Not only did DePaul happily accept the invitation to Hawaii, but they scheduled a game as Oregon State in the same season, a trip at least as long as going to Spokane. Somehow that wasn't a problem for the kids on this year's team.

This year as well Xavier happily accepted an invitation to the Wooden Classic in Anaheim. Somehow the 3 time zone thing didn't seem to be a problem for them. (I know that their first game was in Cincinnati.)

I don't see any schools turning down NCAA tournament bids because they've been placed in the West region. Heck, they're not even turning down NIT or CBI bids when lengthy travel is part of the deal. In fact, many schools pull their kids out of class for the entire week to play 2 tournament games. If they're lucky enough to play deep into the tournament, they might miss weeks of class time. No one utters a peep about that.

Almost all schools take a break of a full month between semesters. A double round robin schedule with 11 schools would probably necessitate an earlier start to the season? At least in the MAAC it does. So why not take full advantage of that month to schedule as many games as possible that involve Gonzaga? The long trip really can't be considered to be a problem when the kids don't have to get back for class, can it?

As I said earlier in this thread, there are solutions to these problems for anyone who wants to look for them. And I have to wonder why a 5 hour flight is worse than a 5 hour bus ride, something that was standard for schools all over the country 50 years ago. In fact many bus rides and train trips before air travel were longer than 5 hours.

Thank you, I've been arguing this point for a while about Gonzaga. Another thing to look at are non-revenue sports travel. I know Marquette's volleyball and soccer teams travel to Calif and Florida and Texas regularly as do Tennis and Cross Country (meets). I don't get the concern as long as the trips are smartly scheduled to minimize the actual number of flights they (Zags) have to take. For everyone else it's literally once a year, if that.

[aughnanure]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But you can pretty much eliminate any P5 school as a possible expansion candidate. It just ain't happening.

Well, yes, I'd agree. In fact, I'd go even further and eliminate any FBS school completely - there's just too much invested for every FBS school to not put their football program first.

Which is why it's a shame Notre Dame isn't with us. They don't want to be tied to the conferences in football, but even they see the need to make sure their foot is in the door somewhere.

[Frank the Tank]

Frank, exactly how many teams are we talking about. It's not really "all sports" because all sports don't play regular conference schedules. Many compete only in a conference tournament.

The time zones are a "killer"? Seriously? It's once a year. The school that it's a killer for is Gonzaga, and they're already on record as saying it's not a problem for them.

Look - there's "bad geography" (i.e. the Nebraska to NY/NJ stretch that the Big Ten and Big East currently have)... and then there's BAD GEOGRAPHY. Baseball, women's basketball, men's soccer, women's soccer and women's volleyball are all non-revenue sports where they're not just playing a season-ending conference tournament and there are games throughout the season. I know as well as anyone that I wouldn't put it past a school to ignore all of that if the money is right, but like I've said, even in the instances where power conferences (i.e. leagues that have choices) expanded where they supposedly "ignored geography", they were still actually just adding to an adjacent state and region.

Don't get me wrong - I love Gonzaga as a school. If it were located anywhere east of Omaha or, heck, even in Denver, then it would be a no-brainer decision. However, I think the Big East wants to be more than just a basketball league. I think that the university presidents have visions of the Big East brand eventually being to private urban universities in the eastern half of the US what the Big Ten is to large research universities in that same footprint. This includes a geographical component in order to enhance network effects. Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's grads cross paths in real life (not just "sports life"), and the same is with DePaul, Marquette and Butler. That's what takes a league from being merely a basketball league to a brand that's much larger.

[BigmanU]

Has this been brought up????


What if Few leaves or decides to retire?? Few (2000-present) was behind the wheel for almost all of Gonzaga's accomplishments (15 NCAA's & 4 Sweet 16's) . They have 2 NCAA's & 1 Elite 8 (year prior 99') before him. How is this different than the Shaka Smart/VCU conundrum?

I know they have a brand now, but what happens when he leaves. They still only play WCC competition. Saying this, I still would love to have the top 4 of the league find a way to play them 2 home & 2 away non-conference schedule.

With Few and Gonzaga...
He is from the Northwest and has made it clear that he wants to stay at Gonzaga (schools don't even bother asking him anymore). Luckily, he's only just turned 53, so he has many years ahead of him with the Zags. Along with JT3 at Georgetown and Ed Cooley, plus Jay Wright, plus maybe Chris Mack, unless something really unfortunate happens (health, etc), we'd have the 3 (and 4 and 5) of them as Big East fixtures for 10+ years.

Yes, Few has said that the best fly fishing in the world is only a few miles away, so why should he go anywhere else?

On top of of having him for years to come, Gonzaga has shown their commitment to winning by the investments they've made in the program. Their teams all travel first class - all, not just basketball. Their home games are sold out with a waiting list. And that's with WCAC level competition coming in. There is a larger civic arena available in Spokane for the bigger crowds that likely would be generated by Big East competition. They've built excellent facilities.

This program isn't just about Few. It's institutional. You really couldn't get a more ideal candidate for the Big East; they have everything you'd be looking for in a conference member. And the fact is they just feel like they belong. Once the C7 decided to go in the direction it did, Gonzaga is the one missing piece. We should have all the elite Catholic school programs together under one umbrella. On top of that, they no longer fit in the conference they're playing in. It's like having a national power playing in the MAAC.

The people who should be objecting are the people at Gonzaga. But incredibly they're not! They're saying, "We'll make it work." And the Big East is sitting on its hands. Boggles the mind. Especially when you realize that Creighton is half way there, allowing teams to leap frog from one to the other. It's one long road trip a year for goodness sakes.

When I look at the conference race we could be having this year with 2 top ten teams, it's just a shame. It would be like the 1980's all over again.

Thanks for the insight.

[Gopher+RamFan]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But you can pretty much eliminate any P5 school as a possible expansion candidate. It just ain't happening.

Well, yes, I'd agree. In fact, I'd go even further and eliminate any FBS school completely - there's just too much invested for every FBS school to not put their football program first.

There are some on here who laugh off the notion of public schools citing a "possibility" of starting football (as opposed to institutional difference, which I can understand) - but are the first to jump at a BCS school fantasy.

Starting a football program costs 50-100 million, if it wants to be successful. No BCS level program will give up what they have invested, football is too valuable.

[aughnanure]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But you can pretty much eliminate any P5 school as a possible expansion candidate. It just ain't happening.

Well, yes, I'd agree. In fact, I'd go even further and eliminate any FBS school completely - there's just too much invested for every FBS school to not put their football program first.

There are some on here who laugh off the notion of public schools citing a "possibility" of starting football (as opposed to institutional difference, which I can understand) - but are the first to jump at a BCS school fantasy.

Starting a football program costs 50-100 million, if it wants to be successful. No BCS level program will give up what they have invested, football is too valuable.

Only idiots are worried about you guys starting football. I'm much more interested in what schools will become available as the P5 start seperating themselves and schools realize the economics of football are not sustainable (they're really not right now for most). Could Memphis be available some day? I see Cincy and UConn eventually getting in, but a school like Memphis could easily be left out.

[GoldenWarrior11]

If/when the Big East decides to expand, is there any other conference it can look to add from other than the WCC, Horizon, Missouri Valley or the A-10? It doesn't look like they can get a P5 school anytime soon.