BE 1st team

[XUFan09]

I could see an argument for Ochefu, as he is possibly the best rebounder in the conference, is a good defender, and is an efficient offensive player. Obepka is great defensively, but he's not as good of a rebounder as Stainbrook and his offense leaves quite a lot to be desired. He has a sub-D1-average offensive efficiency while being classified as "Limited Role" by Kenpom (only 15% usage rate).

Classified as a "Significant Contributor," Stainbrook has an offensive efficiency (127.6) that ranks #29 in the nation and #1 in the Big East (by a fair margin), and that's when his passing ability as a center is his best attribute. He is one of the better rebounders in the conference too. He is also a decent post defender. The real drop-off is his defense on stretch-4s and athletic bigs, but all-conference teams are weighted toward offense and away from defense.

Not a big Ken Pom fan, but whatever . . .

All good points. I would only take issue with Ochefu being the best rebounder in the conference. I like what Delgado does more. And Woods has to be in the conversation as well.

I did say "possibly"; there is definitely debate. Ochefu or James Farr is probably the best defensive rebounder in the conference. Because Farr only plays about half the minutes, we can rule him out. Angel Delgado is still really good on that end, but Ochefu gets defensive rebounds at a rate 25% better than him (29.3% vs. 23.8%). Kameron Woods is closer at 26.0%. In terms of offensive rebounding, Delgado and Josh Smith are the probably the best, but we can exclude Smith because he isn't nearly as good on the defensive end. Ochefu is right behind Delgado, 15.2% vs. 13.6%. That puts Delgado a notch above him, but (IMO) not as big of an edge as Ochefu's on the other end. Kameron Woods is behind both of them at 11.9%. I'd put Woods as the third best rebounder in a tie with Farr/Reynolds (combined those two equal one 40-minute player). As for Ochefu vs. Delgado, they both have a side of the ball where they are probably the best. Ochefu is proportionally better on the defensive end, but you might be able to argue that offensive rebounds are a little more about individual ability. So, altogether I'd say it could be a tie:

1. Delgado
1. Ochefu
...
3. Woods
3. Reynolds/Farr

[Bill Marsh]

I could see an argument for Ochefu, as he is possibly the best rebounder in the conference, is a good defender, and is an efficient offensive player. Obepka is great defensively, but he's not as good of a rebounder as Stainbrook and his offense leaves quite a lot to be desired. He has a sub-D1-average offensive efficiency while being classified as "Limited Role" by Kenpom (only 15% usage rate).

Classified as a "Significant Contributor," Stainbrook has an offensive efficiency (127.6) that ranks #29 in the nation and #1 in the Big East (by a fair margin), and that's when his passing ability as a center is his best attribute. He is one of the better rebounders in the conference too. He is also a decent post defender. The real drop-off is his defense on stretch-4s and athletic bigs, but all-conference teams are weighted toward offense and away from defense.

Not a big Ken Pom fan, but whatever . . .

All good points. I would only take issue with Ochefu being the best rebounder in the conference. I like what Delgado does more. And Woods has to be in the conversation as well.

I did say "possibly"; there is definitely debate. Ochefu or James Farr is probably the best defensive rebounder in the conference. Because Farr only plays about half the minutes, we can rule him out. Angel Delgado is still really good on that end, but Ochefu gets defensive rebounds at a rate 25% better than him (29.3% vs. 23.8%). Kameron Woods is closer at 26.0%. In terms of offensive rebounding, Delgado and Josh Smith are the probably the best, but we can exclude Smith because he isn't nearly as good on the defensive end. Ochefu is right behind Delgado, 15.2% vs. 13.6%. That puts Delgado a notch above him, but (IMO) not as big of an edge as Ochefu's on the other end. Kameron Woods is behind both of them at 11.9%. I'd put Woods as the third best rebounder in a tie with Farr/Reynolds (combined those two equal one 40-minute player). As for Ochefu vs. Delgado, they both have a side of the ball where they are probably the best. Ochefu is proportionally better on the defensive end, but you might be able to argue that offensive rebounds are a little more about individual ability. So, altogether I'd say it could be a tie:

1. Delgado
1. Ochefu
...
3. Woods
3. Reynolds/Farr

I'm more impressed with players who get offensive rebounds. Teams are supposed to get defensive rebounds. Defenders are in better position to get rebounds than offensive players are. Often there is more than one player in position to get the ball. If one doesn't get it, another will or would have.

Teams are not supposed to get offensive rebounds. Those are the rebounds that really make a difference in terms of extra possessions. Delgado is an excellent offensive rebounder, which is why I prefer his game to some others.

[Bill Marsh]

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All good points. I would only take issue with Ochefu being the best rebounder in the conference. I like what Delgado does more. And Woods has to be in the conversation as well.

Um...didn't Ochefu have like 24 boards vs. Delgado and SHU? Woods was limited to 1 pt. and 6 boards vs. Nova while Chef had 5 blocks, 10 pts. and 9 boards. Not sure those two belong in the same conversation either.

I actually think Stainbrook deserves an all-BE nod as the C. Ochefu struggled against him a little as did Josh Smith. He's just a load and is crafty offensively with that left hand. If you look at the head-to-head stats Stainbrook has performed better. Now with that being said I would not trade Ochefu for Stainbrook. He works for X's style but Chef works better for what Jay is trying to do at Nova. We are so much better with an athletic big who can switch off on D. Stain would get eaten alive by G's on the perimeter.

Just a few points for clarification.

1. Delgado is a freshman who was in constant foul trouble the entire game vs Villanova and saw only 15 minutes of PT. That certainly helped to keep his numbers down. Both teams in that game shot in the low 30's in FG%. Rebound totals are directly related to missed shots. The 2 teams missed about 40 shots apiece. That had something to do with Ochefu's high rebound total for that game. Not really a fair basis for comparison when one guy plays 35 minutes and the other one plays 15.

2. Always problematic to use one game as the basis for a comparison of 2 players. In the case of Delgado, we have no choice if we are talking head-to-head because he's a freshman, but in the case of Woods, he and Ochefu have a history that goes back beyond this season. Woods out rebounded Ochefu in both games that the 2 teams played last year, so I'd hardly look at this year's game as definitive. As for "holding" Woods to one point, I don't think that's much of a feat since he's not really a scorer.

Not really trying to knock Ochefu here because I agree that he's a very good player. I'm trying to put your examples in context.

[XUFan09]

Generally, I think it's true that offensive rebounding is more impressive, but I think you overstate it. Even a bad offensive rebounding team averages more than one offensive rebound for every four opportunities, and a top 100 team averages at least one in every three and sometimes two in every five. The edge goes to the defense, sure, but that's why offensive rebounding rates and defensive rebounding rates are ranked separately. It's still a notable and highly demanded skill to be a good defensive rebounder, and some are really good at it.

You also have to consider that Ocefu is #5 in the nation in defensive rebounding rate when he plays on a team only ranked 88th in defensive rebounding. That is really hard to do. The lack of strong rebounders around him means that he will get a few more because his teammates are not "stealing" rebounds, but that's more than balanced out by the fact that they themselves aren't always keeping their guys in check at a good rate, making his job harder.

[gmoser1210]

Here are my updated teams, following this week's results:

Player of the Year: Kris Dunn, Providence

1st Team
LaDontae Henton - Providence
Roosevelt Jones - Butler
Sterling Gibbs - Seton Hall
Smith-Rivera, Devonte - Georgetown
Darrun Hilliard - Villanova

2nd Team
Sir'Dominic Pointer - St. John's
Billy Garrett - DePaul
Alex Barlow - Butler
D'Angelo Harrison - St. John's
Matt Carlino - Marquette

Honorable Mention
Myles Davis - Xavier
Ryan Arcidiacono - Villanova
Kellen Dunham - Butler
Joshua Smith - Georgetown
Matt Stainbrook - Xavier

[Amase2]

Here are my updated teams, following this week's results:

Player of the Year: Kris Dunn, Providence

1st Team
LaDontae Henton - Providence
Roosevelt Jones - Butler
Sterling Gibbs - Seton Hall
Smith-Rivera, Devonte - Georgetown
Darrun Hilliard - Villanova

2nd Team
Sir'Dominic Pointer - St. John's
Billy Garrett - DePaul
Alex Barlow - Butler
D'Angelo Harrison - St. John's
Matt Carlino - Marquette

Honorable Mention
Myles Davis - Xavier
Ryan Arcidiacono - Villanova
Kellen Dunham - Butler
Joshua Smith - Georgetown
Matt Stainbrook - Xavier

Swap Gibbs with Harrison and I agree with your list.

FWIW- 3 players listed below

FG 3FG FT
A- 17.1 pts 2rbs 4 asts 1.3 sts 1.8 to's .446 .450 .750

B- 18.6 pts 5.7 rbs 1.9 asts 1.2 sts 1.4 to's .422 .362 .809

C- 15.2 pts 3.7 rbs 3.3 asts 1.6 sts 1.5 tp's .407 .382 .861

[gmoser1210]

Really, they're both extremely similar. In conference games, hey both average 18.7 points, and Harrison is averaging two more rebounds per game and is doing marginally better in blocks, but I've got to give Gibbs the edge because of a significantly more impressive assist/turnover ratio. Gibbs has 2.83 assists for every turnover (51:18), while Harrison only has 1.18 assists per turnover (19:16).

[gmoser1210]

As for the options, A, B, and C, I'd go for A first, then B, and then C. That's unless there's a major difference between their respective teams' results. If two players are even remotely similar and one plays for Georgetown but the other plays for Marquette, I'd give the Georgetown player the nod because of their ability to lead their team to a win over Villanova and Butler.

[Bill Marsh]

I'll take C because he's a money player whom I've seen come through in the clutch way too many times. He's also a true point guard who does a great job running his team's offense. After him, I'll take A, then B.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Just a few points for clarification.

1. Delgado is a freshman who was in constant foul trouble the entire game vs Villanova and saw only 15 minutes of PT. That certainly helped to keep his numbers down. Both teams in that game shot in the low 30's in FG%. Rebound totals are directly related to missed shots. The 2 teams missed about 40 shots apiece. That had something to do with Ochefu's high rebound total for that game. Not really a fair basis for comparison when one guy plays 35 minutes and the other one plays 15.

2. Always problematic to use one game as the basis for a comparison of 2 players. In the case of Delgado, we have no choice if we are talking head-to-head because he's a freshman, but in the case of Woods, he and Ochefu have a history that goes back beyond this season. Woods out rebounded Ochefu in both games that the 2 teams played last year, so I'd hardly look at this year's game as definitive. As for "holding" Woods to one point, I don't think that's much of a feat since he's not really a scorer.

Not really trying to knock Ochefu here because I agree that he's a very good player. I'm trying to put your examples in context.

Bill I always enjoy your viewpoints but I don't get your logic here and the actual data doesn't support your argument even a little bit. There are several significant flaws in your analysis, and you seem to want it both ways. First, you say that you can't judge the Ochefu-Delgado match-up because it's only one game but 3 games between Woods and Ochefu is an acceptable sample size? OK, if that's what you want, let's look at their 3 match-ups.

Below captures the # of minutes played vs. each other, rebounds and Rebs/min:
Woods - 94 mins / 19 rebs = .202 / min.
Ochefu - 65 mins / 18 rebs = .277 / min.

To put that in perspective if they each played 30 min games, Ochefu would have out-rebounded Woods 8.31 to 6.06 which equates to Ochefu rebounding at a 37% higher clip. That's a pretty significant difference, wouldn't you agree?

Now, since that is only 3 games, let's look at the same metric over this season.

Rebounds per minute:
Ochefu - .36 / min
Woods - .32 / min
FYI : Delgado - .35 / min

That equates to 1.2 more rebounds per game if Woods and Ochefu played the same # of mins / game (eg - 30 mins).

I would also argue that Woods does not have other players on his team that are nearly as good as Jayvaughn Pinkston and Josh Hart at rebounding. Those two average about .2 rebs/min while the next best rebounders on Butler (Jones and Barlow) average about .14 / min. So I would say that Ochefu at times has to battle his own teammates for some rebounds more than Woods has to. In other words why was Charles Barkley a better rebounder after the 76ers traded away Moses Malone? Coincidence or did Moses limit his rebound opportunities because he was good at it himself?

Lastly the BE hadn't seen a 24 rebound game in decades, so to summarily dismiss it, regardless of shooting %, is a bit foolish.

I like Woods. He does his job well. I just don't agree with your assertion that he is a better overall rebounder than Ochefu. Looking at the data I'm not sure your argument holds up.