The Holy Land of Hoops

What bothers me so much about this year as a SJU fan is how little sense our team makes. Last year, four games into Big East play we beat a ranked Cincy on the road and a ranked ND at home. We lost in OT to Nova on the road I believe first game of the year. And we beat DePaul on the road sometime later in the season. This year we are 0 and 4 with a loss tonight to DePaul.

We were doing quite well last year (on the bubble) until the DLo suspension. We were third place in the conference after the first few weeks.

So how is it possible that we bring everyone back from last year, add some players (like Jordan who's the best player on the team and the PG we were missing), nobody is hurt, YET we're a worse team.

Just makes no damn sense.

Anybody have any theories?

I really have just one theory.

It really makes zero sense. How does not having to play L'Ville, Cuse, Pitt, etc. in a much diminished conference with 6 top 100 players including a 5 star PG, no injuries, mostly veterans result in this mess of a 9-7 0-4 team? Last year we beat #16 Cincy, #20 Notre Dame, UConn (who would have gone to the tourney if they didn't have it vacated), and took #12 Marquette to the buzzer where they just made a layup to win it...mind you that was without like 2 or 3 starters including Harrison.

I just don't get it...one of the differences seems to be the ability to close or the lack of the ability to close. Last year DePaul kept it pretty close but we were still able to close so the games didn't really feel in danger if we were leading with 2 minutes left or so. At the end of the ND win, Harrison made huge shots and blocked their last second shot to close it out. In the Cincy game Harrison made a huge 3 towards the end. We had a killer instinct. This year's team totally forgot what to do with 5 minutes left in a game. They seem to panic and you just get the gut feeling they are going to lose...the opponents never miss in the final minutes. We wilt in the final minutes. 4 of our games were lost by a combined 20 points...aka 5 pts on average. That's what separates us from 13-3 and being ranked #20 to now 9-7 without any conference wins.

I really think Lavin needs to be fired but deep down I'm curious to see what he can do with 1 more class...I want to see him recruit real basketball players with refined shooting skills and a big man who knows how to score down low. More players who are great at one thing instead of decent in all areas. Another failed recruiting cycle tells me that it's definitely Lavin. Jordan is actually good...I hope he doesn't transfer.

I love Steve Lavin. He's such a cool dude. But his coaching abilities are... suspect.

Yeah I agree with the Lavin thing but still doesn't really explain how they're actually worse this year. It has something to do with it though.

Lavinwood wrote:It really makes zero sense. How does not having to play L'Ville, Cuse, Pitt, etc. in a much diminished conference with 6 top 100 players including a 5 star PG, no injuries, mostly veterans result in this mess of a 9-7 0-4 team? Last year we beat #16 Cincy, #20 Notre Dame, UConn (who would have gone to the tourney if they didn't have it vacated), and took #12 Marquette to the buzzer where they just made a layup to win it...mind you that was without like 2 or 3 starters including Harrison.

I just don't get it...one of the differences seems to be the ability to close or the lack of the ability to close. Last year DePaul kept it pretty close but we were still able to close so the games didn't really feel in danger if we were leading with 2 minutes left or so. At the end of the ND win, Harrison made huge shots and blocked their last second shot to close it out. In the Cincy game Harrison made a huge 3 towards the end. We had a killer instinct. This year's team totally forgot what to do with 5 minutes left in a game. They seem to panic and you just get the gut feeling they are going to lose...the opponents never miss in the final minutes. We wilt in the final minutes. 4 of our games were lost by a combined 20 points...aka 5 pts on average. That's what separates us from 13-3 and being ranked #20 to now 9-7 without any conference wins.

I really think Lavin needs to be fired but deep down I'm curious to see what he can do with 1 more class...I want to see him recruit real basketball players with refined shooting skills and a big man who knows how to score down low. More players who are great at one thing instead of decent in all areas. Another failed recruiting cycle tells me that it's definitely Lavin. Jordan is actually good...I hope he doesn't transfer.

Good summary. Well, I don't think I want to wait for another class frankly. Reason being, this year's class looks like a no show, so we'd be waiting on the 2015 class, meaning he wouldn't be gone until summer 2016. And even then people would say "well they're only freshmen". And would incoming freshmen still want to come here???

Aside from being a poor coach on the court, Lavin made the mistake of not getting Jordan more minutes early.This may also hurt recruit's desires to come here.

adoraz11 wrote:What bothers me so much about this year as a SJU fan is how little sense our team makes. Last year, four games into Big East play we beat a ranked Cincy on the road and a ranked ND at home. We lost in OT to Nova on the road I believe first game of the year. And we beat DePaul on the road sometime later in the season. This year we are 0 and 4 with a loss tonight to DePaul.

We were doing quite well last year (on the bubble) until the DLo suspension. We were third place in the conference after the first few weeks.

So how is it possible that we bring everyone back from last year, add some players (like Jordan who's the best player on the team and the PG we were missing), nobody is hurt, YET we're a worse team.

Just makes no damn sense.

Anybody have any theories?

What I am seeing in St. John's (from watching Villanova game and 2/3 of DePaul game plus parts of others) reminds me a lot of Villanova's 2011-2012 season where VU went 13-19 (see results: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/222/year/2012/villanova-wildcats. That year VU had a lot of talent (on paper anyway) (see roster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80 ... eam#Roster) including Wayans, Cheek, Yarou, Bell, Pinkston, and others yet the team had zero chemistry and played very selfish basketball. It was frustrating to watch knowing that Wayans and Cheek would hold the ball until there was 10 seconds left on the clock and then put up an awful shot.

You could argue that the team Villanova has right now doesn't have as much talent on paper as the 2011-2012 team did but they play as a team and play really , really solid defense. The 2011-2012 team played crappy defense. Every team will have off nights on the offensive end but a solid defense can keep a team in those games. The VU-SJU game last week is a good example: Villanova didn't shoot well at all, certainly nowhere close to what they had shot the prior two games yet their defense kept St. John's from getting much of a lead.

St. John's 2013-2014 reminds me of VU 2011-2012: A lot of talent that doesn't seem to enjoy playing with or for each other.

mpwalsh8 wrote:

adoraz11 wrote:What bothers me so much about this year as a SJU fan is how little sense our team makes. Last year, four games into Big East play we beat a ranked Cincy on the road and a ranked ND at home. We lost in OT to Nova on the road I believe first game of the year. And we beat DePaul on the road sometime later in the season. This year we are 0 and 4 with a loss tonight to DePaul.

We were doing quite well last year (on the bubble) until the DLo suspension. We were third place in the conference after the first few weeks.

So how is it possible that we bring everyone back from last year, add some players (like Jordan who's the best player on the team and the PG we were missing), nobody is hurt, YET we're a worse team.

Just makes no damn sense.

Anybody have any theories?

What I am seeing in St. John's (from watching Villanova game and 2/3 of DePaul game plus parts of others) reminds me a lot of Villanova's 2011-2012 season where VU went 13-19 (see results: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/222/year/2012/villanova-wildcats. That year VU had a lot of talent (on paper anyway) (see roster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80 ... eam#Roster) including Wayans, Cheek, Yarou, Bell, Pinkston, and others yet the team had zero chemistry and played very selfish basketball. It was frustrating to watch knowing that Wayans and Cheek would hold the ball until there was 10 seconds left on the clock and then put up an awful shot.

You could argue that the team Villanova has right now doesn't have as much talent on paper as the 2011-2012 team did but they play as a team and play really , really solid defense. The 2011-2012 team played crappy defense. Every team will have off nights on the offensive end but a solid defense can keep a team in those games. The VU-SJU game last week is a good example: Villanova didn't shoot well at all, certainly nowhere close to what they had shot the prior two games yet their defense kept St. John's from getting much of a lead.

St. John's 2013-2014 reminds me of VU 2011-2012: A lot of talent that doesn't seem to enjoy playing with or for each other.

I agree with this, I don't think it explains it all but it's a factor.

I think part of that may have to do with SJU rotating so many players (two walkons started vs Gtown). Less minutes per player leads to more selfishness to pad individual stats.

adoraz11 wrote:Yeah I agree with the Lavin thing but still doesn't really explain how they're actually worse this year. It has something to do with it though.

Lavinwood wrote:It really makes zero sense. How does not having to play L'Ville, Cuse, Pitt, etc. in a much diminished conference with 6 top 100 players including a 5 star PG, no injuries, mostly veterans result in this mess of a 9-7 0-4 team? Last year we beat #16 Cincy, #20 Notre Dame, UConn (who would have gone to the tourney if they didn't have it vacated), and took #12 Marquette to the buzzer where they just made a layup to win it...mind you that was without like 2 or 3 starters including Harrison.

I just don't get it...one of the differences seems to be the ability to close or the lack of the ability to close. Last year DePaul kept it pretty close but we were still able to close so the games didn't really feel in danger if we were leading with 2 minutes left or so. At the end of the ND win, Harrison made huge shots and blocked their last second shot to close it out. In the Cincy game Harrison made a huge 3 towards the end. We had a killer instinct. This year's team totally forgot what to do with 5 minutes left in a game. They seem to panic and you just get the gut feeling they are going to lose...the opponents never miss in the final minutes. We wilt in the final minutes. 4 of our games were lost by a combined 20 points...aka 5 pts on average. That's what separates us from 13-3 and being ranked #20 to now 9-7 without any conference wins.

I really think Lavin needs to be fired but deep down I'm curious to see what he can do with 1 more class...I want to see him recruit real basketball players with refined shooting skills and a big man who knows how to score down low. More players who are great at one thing instead of decent in all areas. Another failed recruiting cycle tells me that it's definitely Lavin. Jordan is actually good...I hope he doesn't transfer.

Good summary. Well, I don't think I want to wait for another class frankly. Reason being, this year's class looks like a no show, so we'd be waiting on the 2015 class, meaning he wouldn't be gone until summer 2016. And even then people would say "well they're only freshmen". And would incoming freshmen still want to come here???

Aside from being a poor coach on the court, Lavin made the mistake of not getting Jordan more minutes early.This may also hurt recruit's desires to come here.

Good point...we have 0 recruits for 2014 so 2015 is the year he'd have some. I think every once in a while a player will come here and be so talented they are good even without a coach i.e. Harkless, Jordan. But that's not good enough. We need a total team effort and for that we need a real coach who understands how to run an offense, how to find shooters, how to find post guys who can score and rebound, and PG who can drive to the hoop and dish (think we have one in Jordan). We need a coach who takes ok players and turns them into decent players. We need good recruits to turn into great players. And we need below average players to be average by year 4. Right now what we have are very good recruits playing at a below average level. Instead of getting more from them, he's getting less. It's certainly a major red flag when you see such talented players DECLINE as they get more experienced. Lavin seems to be too much of a "Aw, that's ok...let's try again next time!" kinda guy. We need a "This loss was totally unacceptable and we just embarrassed ourselves" kinda guy. Call a spade a spade for once. Why can't Lavin just say "I'll be honest with you, I'm very disappointed and quite frankly shocked that such a talented team as us is in last place. This is unacceptable and we cannot afford these losses. We need to respond in a big way"? To make things worse, Lavin doesn't even put our best players out there all the time. He has hidden Jordan from the media and from the team for most of the season, and when he decides to play him he promptly scores 16-17 pts easily. I think the big pain on offense is Sampson. He has been awful. The mid rangers he was making all freshman year are now clanking in and out or bouncing off the rim. He is also missing dunks and layups and he routinely gets overpowered by bigger players. Sampson looks like he weighs 175 lbs soaking wet at 6'8. He's way too skinny.

It's extra sad that this is my final year at SJ as I'm graduating and was expecting a great season for the memory books. But now I will graduate having never seen SJ make a tournament as a student. I think at a certain point losing so much just creates a stink in the air at certain programs and it messes with them psychologically. When you are used to never making the tourney, your expectations become lowered and you play down to competition. I think this program is snakebitten and so overdue for a consistent winner. Fans have suffered for way too long. I will never have expectations for SJ again...I will predict them to finish dead last and hopefully be pleasantly surprised. I will never buy into the hype of a recruit until he proves it with our jersey on.

The worst part is dragging my non-SJ student friends to their games after telling them how good we would be this year. They now make fun of me and say "you say that every year and they always suck...". I have never been to a game at the Garden when we won.

mpwalsh8 wrote:What I am seeing in St. John's (from watching Villanova game and 2/3 of DePaul game plus parts of others) reminds me a lot of Villanova's 2011-2012 season where VU went 13-19 (see results: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/222/year/2012/villanova-wildcats. That year VU had a lot of talent (on paper anyway) (see roster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80 ... eam#Roster) including Wayans, Cheek, Yarou, Bell, Pinkston, and others yet the team had zero chemistry and played very selfish basketball. It was frustrating to watch knowing that Wayans and Cheek would hold the ball until there was 10 seconds left on the clock and then put up an awful shot.

You could argue that the team Villanova has right now doesn't have as much talent on paper as the 2011-2012 team did but they play as a team and play really , really solid defense. The 2011-2012 team played crappy defense. Every team will have off nights on the offensive end but a solid defense can keep a team in those games. The VU-SJU game last week is a good example: Villanova didn't shoot well at all, certainly nowhere close to what they had shot the prior two games yet their defense kept St. John's from getting much of a lead.

St. John's 2013-2014 reminds me of VU 2011-2012: A lot of talent that doesn't seem to enjoy playing with or for each other.

I think this is very sound analysis.

I also think people put too much stock in recruiting rankings some times. Just because you have highly ranked individual players, it does not mean you will have a highly ranked team. Things like fit, style and personality type are sometimes more important. At Creighton, we saw how one highly ranked recruit can destroy a team and almost decimate a program a few years ago. Give me team players, not guys who are looking to get theirs every time they step on the floor.

adoraz11 wrote:

mpwalsh8 wrote:What I am seeing in St. John's (from watching Villanova game and 2/3 of DePaul game plus parts of others) reminds me a lot of Villanova's 2011-2012 season where VU went 13-19 (see results: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/222/year/2012/villanova-wildcats. That year VU had a lot of talent (on paper anyway) (see roster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80 ... eam#Roster) including Wayans, Cheek, Yarou, Bell, Pinkston, and others yet the team had zero chemistry and played very selfish basketball. It was frustrating to watch knowing that Wayans and Cheek would hold the ball until there was 10 seconds left on the clock and then put up an awful shot.

You could argue that the team Villanova has right now doesn't have as much talent on paper as the 2011-2012 team did but they play as a team and play really , really solid defense. The 2011-2012 team played crappy defense. Every team will have off nights on the offensive end but a solid defense can keep a team in those games. The VU-SJU game last week is a good example: Villanova didn't shoot well at all, certainly nowhere close to what they had shot the prior two games yet their defense kept St. John's from getting much of a lead.

St. John's 2013-2014 reminds me of VU 2011-2012: A lot of talent that doesn't seem to enjoy playing with or for each other.

I agree with this, I don't think it explains it all but it's a factor.

I think part of that may have to do with SJU rotating so many players (two walkons started vs Gtown). Less minutes per player leads to more selfishness to pad individual stats.

I agree that comparison seems relevant, but when you dig into how cbb teams "develop" chemistry I think there's a major difference which explains a little more about SJU's struggles during the Lavs era. Chemistry in college sports is tough to develop since there's embedded roster turnover in the game. But how it's usually accomplished is by slow turnover and having a good mix of upperclassmen to guide the underclassmen, especially the freshman. SJU had the misfortune of graduating all but 1 player before anyone on this current roster got there. So not only didn't this current SJU team not get shown the ropes by vets when they were youngsters, but even now they don't have those "mentoring" experiences to draw on to pass down to the likes of a Jordan.They have experience in how to figure things out on your own, how to lose a lot of games especially to more veteran teams, ect. Those nova teams weren't structured like that, cheeks/wayns etc. did play with good vets, yet it still didn't happen for that squad. A way around bringing in a large freshman class w/o much upperclassers it is to recruit overwhelming talent like UK or even like Lavs did at UCLA some years ago, but even that can fall apart because of lack of chemistry which looks to be this year's "problem" with UK. Although this SJU team is full of hi-major recruit upperclassmen none of them were elite level. (Moe Harkless was).