Holy Land fan poll - who finishes in 4th place

[aughnanure]

Marquette is losing a lot more than their fans want to admit. Just making the tournament would be a good season for Marquette.

What are you smoking?

So, Marquette put together their best season in 10 years, lose 4 key players from that team, but it will be no
trouble to replace them?

I love to hear MU disparaging their own players, saying that a kid like Cadougan really wasn't that good. Well, he and the rest were good enough to get them to the Elite 8. I'd say those guys were pretty damn good. Replacing them, replacing their experience, their toughness, and the chemistry they had will be very difficult.

Try 3. But sure, if you don't actually know the players that does make your argument easier.

[Bill Marsh]

What are you smoking?

So, Marquette put together their best season in 10 years, lose 4 key players from that team, but it will be no
trouble to replace them?

I love to hear MU disparaging their own players, saying that a kid like Cadougan really wasn't that good. Well, he and the rest were good enough to get them to the Elite 8. I'd say those guys were pretty damn good. Replacing them, replacing their experience, their toughness, and the chemistry they had will be very difficult.

Try 3. But sure, if you don't actually know the players that does make your argument easier.

And you know the players on everyone else's team?

Oh, yeah, you probably do because they're all returning 4-5 starters. But you're going to beat them with your bench, right?

[Bulldog_Muskie]

And you know the players on everyone else's team?

Oh, yeah, you probably do because they're all returning 4-5 starters. But you're going to beat them with your bench, right?

Boom

[MUSeashells&Balloons]

Marquette is losing a lot more than their fans want to admit. Just making the tournament would be a good season for Marquette.

What are you smoking?

So, Marquette put together their best season in 10 years, lose 4 key players from that team, but it will be no
trouble to replace them?

I love to hear MU disparaging their own players, saying that a kid like Cadougan really wasn't that good. Well, he and the rest were good enough to get them to the Elite 8. I'd say those guys were pretty damn good. Replacing them, replacing their experience, their toughness, and the chemistry they had will be very difficult.

Im not saying that we have our best season in 10 years ahead of us. I just think that us just making the tournament would not be a good season for us something will have gone very wrong if thats the case.

[MU1717]

Marquette is losing a lot more than their fans want to admit. Just making the tournament would be a good season for Marquette.

What are you smoking?

So, Marquette put together their best season in 10 years, lose 4 key players from that team, but it will be no
trouble to replace them?

I love to hear MU disparaging their own players, saying that a kid like Cadougan really wasn't that good. Well, he and the rest were good enough to get them to the Elite 8. I'd say those guys were pretty damn good. Replacing them, replacing their experience, their toughness, and the chemistry they had will be very difficult.

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? Who is this 4th key player you speak of? Also, how you perform in the tournament, more often than not, does not represent how good of a team you had. Many would say, me included, that the 2011-2012 with Crowder and Johnson-Odom along with the 2008-2009 team with James, McNeal, Matthews (which easily could have been a Final Four team had James not gotten injured) were far better and had far better players than the team we had last year. We had a very favorable Big East schedule which allowed us to tie for the Big East Title and we played a somewhat overrated Miami team that played a horrendous game against us allowing us to advance to the Elite 8.

[Dave]

And people were saying Nova fans were taking this too personal, might want to include Marquette and Georgetown fans in that basket.

As I said in another thread, you can tell the season's just around the corner, it's starting to heat up round here.

Yeah but.... That was me you were blasting on the other thread, and I'm a Nova fan! I did think you guys were too thin skinned on any objective view that there is more confidence that Buzz and JT3 will deliver the expected regular season wins. It seems the prevailing view here confirms that, and that GTown and Maquette will poll in the top 2 spots.

Nova has the talent to match anyone in the conference, no? GTown and Marquette have more returning talent questions, no? Yet looking beyond the talent, there is more confidence those programs will deliver. Not just from me, an objective Nova fan not caught up in the homerism, but it seems to prove out here in the polls as well.

Marquette fans here are confident that they will make the tournament in a reloading year. They expect more than that in even a down year. Nova fans were tickled to make the tournament last year and thought it was a very good year. Expectations. Marquette is justifiably confident.

[Bill Marsh]

What are you smoking?

So, Marquette put together their best season in 10 years, lose 4 key players from that team, but it will be no
trouble to replace them?

I love to hear MU disparaging their own players, saying that a kid like Cadougan really wasn't that good. Well, he and the rest were good enough to get them to the Elite 8. I'd say those guys were pretty damn good. Replacing them, replacing their experience, their toughness, and the chemistry they had will be very difficult.

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? Who is this 4th key player you speak of? Also, how you perform in the tournament, more often than not, does not represent how good of a team you had. Many would say, me included, that the 2011-2012 with Crowder and Johnson-Odom along with the 2008-2009 team with James, McNeal, Matthews (which easily could have been a Final Four team had James not gotten injured) were far better and had far better players than the team we had last year. We had a very favorable Big East schedule which allowed us to tie for the Big East Title and we played a somewhat overrated Miami team that played a horrendous game against us allowing us to advance to the Elite 8.

Forget about the 4th player. I mistakenly thought that Otule was gone since he was a senior. It doesn't matter. They are losing 3 starters when a handful of other teams are returning 4-5 very talented starters

You're nitpicking about which was the best Marquette team. Let's just agree that they had their best finish since the Wade team. The point is that they had a very, very good year. Too many posters have downplayed the guys who are gone. A team doesn't tie for the Big East title and advance to the Elite 8 without the players who got them there being very, very good.

It's not simply plugging in new talent. It's about developing the chemistry and team work to function as a unit at a higher level than the competition. Why should I expect that a new crop of players will be able to put all of that together in just a few months when teams like Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's and Providence are each returning 4-5 starters who have had at least a year's head start of playing together as a unit to develop the necessary teamwork and chemistry?

[aughnanure]

So, Marquette put together their best season in 10 years, lose 4 key players from that team, but it will be no
trouble to replace them?

I love to hear MU disparaging their own players, saying that a kid like Cadougan really wasn't that good. Well, he and the rest were good enough to get them to the Elite 8. I'd say those guys were pretty damn good. Replacing them, replacing their experience, their toughness, and the chemistry they had will be very difficult.

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? Who is this 4th key player you speak of? Also, how you perform in the tournament, more often than not, does not represent how good of a team you had. Many would say, me included, that the 2011-2012 with Crowder and Johnson-Odom along with the 2008-2009 team with James, McNeal, Matthews (which easily could have been a Final Four team had James not gotten injured) were far better and had far better players than the team we had last year. We had a very favorable Big East schedule which allowed us to tie for the Big East Title and we played a somewhat overrated Miami team that played a horrendous game against us allowing us to advance to the Elite 8.

Forget about the 4th player. I mistakenly thought that Otule was gone since he was a senior. It doesn't matter. They are losing 3 starters when a handful of other teams are returning 4-5 very talented starters

You're nitpicking about which was the best Marquette team. Let's just agree that they had their best finish since the Wade team. The point is that they had a very, very good year. Too many posters have downplayed the guys who are gone. A team doesn't tie for the Big East title and advance to the Elite 8 without the players who got them there being very, very good.

It's not simply plugging in new talent. It's about developing the chemistry and team work to function as a unit at a higher level than the competition. Why should I expect that a new crop of players will be able to put all of that together in just a few months when teams like Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's and Providence are each returning 4-5 starters who have had at least a year's head start of playing together as a unit to develop the necessary teamwork and chemistry?

Why are starters the be all end all for you? Marquette's arguably best player wasn't a starter at all and will probably not start this year either. Jae Crowder, BE POY, notoriously wasn't a starter for us to keep him out of foul trouble. Marquette legitimately played 9-10 deep last year. We would have whole line changes at times. So saying that our team hasn't played "together as a unit" is incorrect. Starters don't only play with starters, and most of the time do not.

We return 8 players from an Elite 8 and BE Champ team and 7 from teams who won 28 BE games the last two years and got to a Sweet 16 and an Elite 8. Six who have gone to 3 Sweet Sixteens. And these are not bench warmers either. But apparently returning 4-5 starters from teams that didn't make the tourney and went .500 or worse in conference is more important and convincing to you.

I just disagree I guess, but arguing is fun and a good sign for our league imo.

[Bill Marsh]

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? Who is this 4th key player you speak of? Also, how you perform in the tournament, more often than not, does not represent how good of a team you had. Many would say, me included, that the 2011-2012 with Crowder and Johnson-Odom along with the 2008-2009 team with James, McNeal, Matthews (which easily could have been a Final Four team had James not gotten injured) were far better and had far better players than the team we had last year. We had a very favorable Big East schedule which allowed us to tie for the Big East Title and we played a somewhat overrated Miami team that played a horrendous game against us allowing us to advance to the Elite 8.

Forget about the 4th player. I mistakenly thought that Otule was gone since he was a senior. It doesn't matter. They are losing 3 starters when a handful of other teams are returning 4-5 very talented starters

You're nitpicking about which was the best Marquette team. Let's just agree that they had their best finish since the Wade team. The point is that they had a very, very good year. Too many posters have downplayed the guys who are gone. A team doesn't tie for the Big East title and advance to the Elite 8 without the players who got them there being very, very good.

It's not simply plugging in new talent. It's about developing the chemistry and team work to function as a unit at a higher level than the competition. Why should I expect that a new crop of players will be able to put all of that together in just a few months when teams like Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's and Providence are each returning 4-5 starters who have had at least a year's head start of playing together as a unit to develop the necessary teamwork and chemistry?

Why are starters the be all end all for you? Marquette's arguably best player wasn't a starter at all and will probably not start this year either. Jae Crowder, BE POY, notoriously wasn't a starter for us to keep him out of foul trouble. Marquette legitimately played 9-10 deep last year. We would have whole line changes at times. So saying that our team hasn't played "together as a unit" is incorrect. Starters don't only play with starters, and most of the time do not.

We return 8 players from an Elite 8 and BE Champ team and 7 from teams who won 28 BE games the last two years and got to a Sweet 16 and an Elite 8. Six who have gone to 3 Sweet Sixteens. And these are not bench warmers either. But apparently returning 4-5 starters from teams that didn't make the tourney and went .500 or worse in conference is more important and convincing to you.

I just disagree I guess, but arguing is fun and a good sign for our league imo.

Starters normally represent a team's core talent. Normally. When a team's core is removed, that normally changes the character of a team. Once that core character is changed, I don't think that we can reliably predict next year's performance from what last year's team did. It also means that the returning players will be performing in different roles. A kid who was great coming off the bench may not necessarily perform at the same level as a starter.

Here are the minutes missing from last year's Marquette team:

Blue - 34 gms, 33 mpg
Cadougan - 35 gms, 28 mpg
Lockett - 35 gms, 27 mpg

Here are the 8 experienced players returning:

J. Wilson - 35 gms, 25 mpg
Gardner - 35 gms, 21 mpg
Otule - 35 gms, 18 mpg
D. Wilson - 35 gms, 13 mpg
Anderson - 35 gms, 13 mpg
Mayo - 23 gms, 14 mpg
Taylor - 35 gms, 9 mpg
Thomas - 23 gms, 9 mpg

[MUBoxer]

Seeing as mayo was suspended half the season you can't really include his numbers. Anyways try finding another team who's front court has 20 years of experience between the 3 PFs and 2 Cs. You're going on about experience an such well that's experience that far and away bears out any other front court in this league. I'm not saying there aren't questions at SG and a few at PG. but C, PF, and SF you are acting like we're screwed because we lost Lockett who was on the team for a year, not exactly a player who grew within the program the way these other guys did, Cadougan hurts yes but the guy was never an elite point gaurd. Heck you are talking about purely starters well freshman year he was injured so wasn't starting following year he goes to the S16 splitting time with buycks, JR year he goes to another S16 splitting time with Blue and Wilson, last year he's the actual go to PG so it's not like he's been a "go to guy" over the years. Blue hurts he's started 3 years and really stepped up and we dont have any truly battle tested guys at SG that's the only tough loss not easily replaced.

And I know you've addressed this but last years team was most certainly not our best team 08-09 and 11-12 would've destroyed that team the way Florida destroyed them. That was a team that got some lucky seeding against a Butler team we were trying to get revenge against, A seriously under rated Davidson team (ok true test) and a wayyyy overrated Miami team.

Finally all your arguments are trying to use other teams logic for a team that isn't like other teams. This is a much easier transition than last year was supposed to be or 09-10 and 10-11 were supposed to be. This isn't a rebuilding year at all for us, it's a regular year.