Big East Conference Realignment v2018

[DudeAnon]

Just so we are clear. Here is how I would rank the Big East in tiers with all realistic candidates added.

1) Nova, Xavier, WSU

2) Creighton, Butler, VCU

3) Seton Hall, Providence, Dayton

4) Georgetown, Marquette, St. John's, DePaul, UConn

Anyone disagree with this? If so, what specifically do you disagree with? Georgetown and Marquette may be shocked to see themselves that low. But that is the current state of their program and I don't see it changing any time soon.

By the way, this would be a great conference and arguably more competitive than the one we have now.

You are delusional.

Think about a football 5 conferences poaching for basketball in order. Historical prestige, location, eyes on TV's & (wayyy lesser extent) recent history are all that matter. I might get total disagreement on this, but the tiers would be something like this.

1) Nova

2) Georgetown , UConn, St. Johns

3) Xavier, Marquette, Seton Hall

4) Providence, Creighton, Butler, DePaul

5) Dayton, VCU

6) WSU

What casual fan (outside their market) is running to the tube to see WSU, Dayton and VCU?

I simply disagree. Right now WSU is a bigger draw than Georgetown. The number by the name means a lot. Also, 7PM on ESPN2 tonight. WSU vs Temple.

Look at WSU's schedule. http://goshockers.com/schedule.aspx?path=m_bkb I see a lot ESPN, ESPN2 and a few ESPNU's. They are a nationally relevant program.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

Just so we are clear. Here is how I would rank the Big East in tiers with all realistic candidates added.

1) Nova, Xavier, WSU

2) Creighton, Butler, VCU

3) Seton Hall, Providence, Dayton

4) Georgetown, Marquette, St. John's, DePaul, UConn

Anyone disagree with this? If so, what specifically do you disagree with? Georgetown and Marquette may be shocked to see themselves that low. But that is the current state of their program and I don't see it changing any time soon.

By the way, this would be a great conference and arguably more competitive than the one we have now.

Are you basing this off of right now in the moment or including recent history? Those are two completely different things for some of these programs. Nova deserves to be in a class by themselves. Wichita has always been overrated and they've shown that going from the Valley to the AAC. If they were in the Big East they'd be similar to Seton Hall, Providence, Butler and Creighton. Butler if you included recent history you could have above Creighton, Seton Hall and Providence because of tournament wins but they just lost their head coach so we'll see if Jordan keeps up that standard. VCU just lost their coach and is struggling this year so if you're looking at the programs right now they don't deserve to be that high. Same can be said for Dayton as well. Here would be my rankings which is more weighted on the program right now with recent history also in mind.

1. Nova
- Best by far. As long as Jay stays they'll stay up here.
2. Xavier
- Second best by far when considering regular and post season success. Would obviously fall if Mack leaves.
3. Butler, Creighton, Providence, Seton Hall, WSU
- All have different positives and negatives but on the whole these teams are on the same level. Consistent tournament teams but not consistently into the second weekend.
4. Marquette
- On the up with the team being almost all underclassmen. Still need to scrape a tournament appearance this year to keep momentum and then next season is really make or break time for Wojo.
5. VCU, Dayton
- Both recently lost their coaches and won't make the tourney this year. Could easily climb if the new coaches get them back to making the tourney regularly.
6. Georgetown, UConn, St. John's, DePaul.
- I rank Georgetown first in this group since they've got the new coach hope. UConn I would think would join that group as they've got to fire Ollie. Both programs are playing way below their level for how much money they put into their programs. St John's got a tough break this year with Lovett but Mullin appears to be a horrible coach. If they don't improve next year he'll be out soon. Depaul got a new arena but made a terrible coaching hire. It doesn't even seem like they care about having a good program.

I am basing it on where the program is currently and where I see it in the future.

1) Nova is the best, but not by far. As much as Jay has dominated the league, he hasn't translated that success into recruiting wins. Xavier is recruiting as well if not better than Villanova. And let us not forget, they have bombed in the tournament every year but 2016.

2) WSU has the record and recent successes to be in the top tier. Combine that with their fan-support and I think they are here to stay as a top tier program.

3) I don't put Seton Hall and Providence on the same level as Butler and Creighton. Seton Hall is going to take a massive drop next year when their famed recruiting class leaves. Providence has Cooley but for some reason they seem to be stuck in the "good not great" gear. I also think the fan support of both these programs and is somewhat below Creighton, Butler and VCU.

4) Wojo is bad, they extended him to 2023, it might be a while before Marquette is good again.

5) VCU and Dayton are down right now, but with their fan-support they will always be a mid-tier team just by the crowds they bring.

6) I think UConn has the best chance (but only a chance, there is no evidence these programs can survive coaching changes) of these to make a return to relevance, then Georgetown. The other two are doomed.

Xavier had one really good recruiting class and then followed it up with a dud. We are not recruiting on the same level as Nova and you could even argue that Providence is recruiting at an equal or higher level. If you don't think Nova is on their own level then you're just delusional.

Wichita is showing this year they got to inflate their record in the Valley every year. The AAC isn't even a very good conference but it was still a major step up from the Valley. They havn't made it out of the first weekend the last two years and I don't think they will this year either.

Seton Hall I agree with you that they very well could take a dive after this year. Providence though is right behind Xavier in terms of consistent success in the Big East and are the only other team besides X and Nova to make the tourney every year. I would like to see them get to the second weekend of the tourney but Cooley is one of the best coaches in the conference and recruits at a high level.

[_lh]

The Big is perfect with 10 teams. There is no need to expand unless UCONN, Notre Dame or Kansas become available. The other "options" all have major warts and would join the BE at anytime.

I think we need to strike while the iron is hot. The Big East currently is regarded as a high-major conference without debate. But I think that is a mix respect for the legacy programs like (Marquette and Georgetown) plus acknowledged success of the new programs. Eventually the respect for Marquette and Georgetown will dissipate if they maintain their current trajectory. At that point, the Big East will be known as Nova, Xavier, Creighton and Butler.

I guess my point is, rather than try and revive the OBE teams we should focus on lifting up programs in their place. I have much more faith in UD, WSU and VCU to help the conference than I do in Georgetown or Marquette at this point. Georgetown and Marquette's brands are helping us, but that will only help so long. Eventually, new reputations are formed. 10 years ago, every C7 school would've scoffed at Butler, now they are getting beaten by them on the regular.

The C7 got it right in adding Creighton, Butler and Xavier. It is time to get it right again while the iron is hot.

I think the biggest take away from your above comment is that everyone, and I mean everyone associated with the Big East is glad you are not in charge of jack squat. Strike while the iron is hot? Please. The schools currently available will always come when called. No reason to expand for any of them in the near future or distant future for that matter.

Marquette for example is way, way better than UD. They pretty much always have been and always will be. Comparing them is laughable and I believe you now to be a closet UD fan. Marquette has a much better chance of being a top tier college basketball program in the next 5 years than UD does. Time will tell with Georgetown but I'd much rather XU be in a league with Georgetown than a proven mid major like UD. UD has had two good seasons in the last 15 years and one was a major fluke aided by NCAA Tournament home games.

[DanofXav76]

The C7 got it right when they added X, Butler & Creighton. No doubt in my mind, for a lot of reasons, Georgetown, Marquette & St. Johns will get things figured out and turned around sooner rather than later. DePaul is another matter, though their new arena is a big step in the right direction.

[ThrowDownDBrown]

The Big is perfect with 10 teams. There is no need to expand unless UCONN, Notre Dame or Kansas become available. The other "options" all have major warts and would join the BE at anytime.

I think we need to strike while the iron is hot. The Big East currently is regarded as a high-major conference without debate. But I think that is a mix respect for the legacy programs like (Marquette and Georgetown) plus acknowledged success of the new programs. Eventually the respect for Marquette and Georgetown will dissipate if they maintain their current trajectory. At that point, the Big East will be known as Nova, Xavier, Creighton and Butler.

I guess my point is, rather than try and revive the OBE teams we should focus on lifting up programs in their place. I have much more faith in UD, WSU and VCU to help the conference than I do in Georgetown or Marquette at this point. Georgetown and Marquette's brands are helping us, but that will only help so long. Eventually, new reputations are formed. 10 years ago, every C7 school would've scoffed at Butler, now they are getting beaten by them on the regular.

The C7 got it right in adding Creighton, Butler and Xavier. It is time to get it right again while the iron is hot.

No. Absolutely not. Wichita and VCU will never be added as they're public schools. The conference may make an exception for Uconn as they're a historic member but even that isn't likely to happen. UD would add nothing to the league. The league is great at 10 and thankfully will stay at 10 for the foreseeable future.

[DanofXav76]

Most Xavier fans. especially those who've been around for a while, know and appreciate how good we got it being invited to the Big East, Let's see, trading St. Johns for Fordham, Georgetown for George Washington, Villanova for St. Josephs , LaSalle & Temple, Marquette for Dayton, Providence for UMass, etc,etc.
A little perspective can be a wonderful thing.

[DudeAnon]

I am sensing a lot of insecurity from my fellow Xavier fans. They believe we have successfully shed the "mid-major" label and want nothing to do with former associates. Well, labels are transient. The Big East is considered a power conference currently, but that is not a guaranteed status. We should be proactive and add programs with a high-potential for success and growth now while the brand is strong.

[Hall2012]

Since last realignment:

Tier 1: Villanova - Obvious. 8 trophies and counting since realignment ( 4 BE regular season, 2 BET, 1 NCAA Regional, 1 NCAA Championship)
Tier 2: Seton Hall, Providence - Only other schools to actually win something since realignment (1 BET each)
Tier 3: Xavier, Butler - Consistently strong and consistently in the tournament
Tier 4: Creighton, Marquette - Up and down, both appear on an upward trajectory
Tier 5: Georgetown, St. John's, DePaul - Have had their moments but struggling generate momentum

Where "candidates" fit in:

Wichita State - Tier 3 - I can't honestly say I think they're better than Creighton or Marquette, but they fit my consistently strong/in the tournament definition of tier 3. I don't push them up to tier 1 or 2 for conference championships because I have full confidence that DePaul would win multiple conference championships playing in the Creighton-less MVC - meaning their last meaningful trophy was prior to realignment and thus not within the timeframe of my rankings. I think the current Wichita State team would finish somewhere between 4th and 7th if they played in the Big East.

Dayton - Tier 5 - They would fit tier 3 by definition, but unlike Wichita State I'm actually going to drop them because of the coaching change. It simply isn't the same team that was a consistently strong tournament team under Archie Miller so they need to prove they can get back to that level under the new coach before I'm willing to move them above tier 5.

VCU - Tier 5 - See Dayton

UConn - Tier 2/Tier 5 - Ugh - A very hard downward trend, but they bring 2 major trophies (NCAA Regional and NCAA Championship) within the time frame. That's more than anyone not named Villanova could say. You know what? An NCAA investigation trumps a National Championship, especially since it puts the status of those trophies in doubt.

[Savannah Jay]

You act as if X, Creighton and Butler are leaps and bounds better than those schools. No offense, but only Xavier was the surefire pick. You really think Creighton and Butler are that much better than UD, VCU and WSU? Don't let the C7's decision blind your objective judgment. All are good candidates and Butler and Creighton have done a good job since joining the conference, but that doesn't mean that the other three wouldn't have done as well. Imagine they had chosen Xavier, UD and WSU. WSU and Dayton probably get the seeds they deserve and have even better tournament runs. And UD likely still has Archie.

I guess in the opinion of the C7, they were leaps and bounds better. For starters, Wichita was never even considered in 2012/13 when the C7 was looking to expand. St. Louis had a better chance of being added. Ditto for VCU.

I am grateful the C7 presidents have more visionary thinking than you. I am guessing, when reviewing the resumes of prospective schools, they could see that CU:
1. Was an academic peer of the C7 schools (Dayton would also qualify here; Wichita definitely not; VCU I have less knowledge of)
2. Prior to being invited to join the Big East, Creighton had just won 8 of the last 15 Missouri Valley Conference tournaments; no one except Gonzaga had this kind of resume; what's more, Creighton sold more tickets to the MVC tournament than any other school in that time, regardless of CUs seeding; this is important, and CU has responded by traveling well to NYC even though, once again, we are the farthest school from the site; Wichita won ZERO MVC tournaments in that time
3. Jays won the regular season title 4 times in that span; Wichita won twice
4. Facilities...Jays have better facilities than the schools you mention, and it's not even close; the commitment to athletic facilities is a much more meaningful and longer term investment than paying a coach while he's hot.
5. Speaking of facilities, Jays have an NBA caliber arena that seats 17,500 and they fill it up; for perspective, add the capacity of VCUs arena and Wichita's arena, and you get CUs arena; the arena will host a regional final in March.
6. Top ten in the country in attendance...and will be again this year
7. I could go on, but you've quit reading and I am as bored with your incessant "add schools now" as you are with my homerism.

For other schools, when you say "except for Butler's two final four runs," I laugh out loud. The ONLY reason Wichita is the "shiny new penny" of CBB right now is because they had one final four run. But you want to discount Butler's two final four runs?

To echo lh, I am grateful that you are not in charge of "jack squat" in the Big East.

[_lh]

I am sensing a lot of insecurity from my fellow Xavier fans. They believe we have successfully shed the "mid-major" label and want nothing to do with former associates. Well, labels are transient. The Big East is considered a power conference currently, but that is not a guaranteed status. We should be proactive and add programs with a high-potential for success and growth now while the brand is strong.

So your solution to keep the Big East from becoming a mid-major conference is to add mid-major programs from other mid-major conferences?