If McDermott wins NPOY where will he rank in Big East lore?

[Sumdumguy]

Which conference is Nova leading? Sounds like 2 former BE members are leading as well as 2 MVC teams from last year.

[NJRedman]

Which conference is Nova leading? Sounds like 2 former BE members are leading as well as 2 MVC teams from last year.

Well unfortunately for you guys, the Big East regular season championship does not go down to tie breakers.

[IowaJay]

There is zero doubt in my mind that Doug would have the same career numbers he has right now if he was in the Big East the last three seasons as opposed to the MVC. He has torched every team he has played.

However, just like the debate as to what his numbers would be in the 80s BE, it is a completely hypothetical discussion. Others could reasonbly come to a different conclusion, and nobody will ever know who is correct.

The only thing i know for sure is he will end up a Top 10 all-time scorer in NCAA history (very possibly Top 5), Two-time MVC player of the year, One-time BE player of the year, One-time Wooden Award Winner (a virtual certainty) , and Three-time 1st team All American.

What he has done for Creighton can't be put into words or numbers. Simply put, without him we would not be in the Big East. I can appreciate a carrer like that on its own merits, and I am extremely lucky to have seen it in person for four years.

Not a chance. You new guys underestimate the rugged schedule we used to have. You have three conferences where the conference leaders are former Big East members (Nova, Cuse, Cincy), McDermotts freshman year he would have been going against 11 teams in conference who would make the NCAA's. Thinking the kid who averaged 14 points in the MVC would "torch" these ranked teams night in night out is unrealistic. The national champs finished 9-9 and in 9th place in the conference. This is why we say the MVC couldn't hold a candle to the old Big East. And when we say the old Big East we mean the 16 team behemoth, not the 1984 3 teams in the Final Four old Big East. We're not trying to put anyone down, just trying to explain how insanely tough that conference line up was. It almost had to break up, it was just too much.

I completely understand that the old Big East has an incredible past. You've had Final Four teams. You've had National Champions. You've had Wooden and Naismith award winners. I get it. But to be fair, the *current* conference leader in the new Big East is Creighton, not 'Nova. *Nobody* is arguing that McDermott was an All-American his freshman year. He was--without argument--a First-Team All-American as a sophomore AND a junior. And this year, McBuckets has poured in 39 points on a couple conference foes and has displayed an incredible array of talent with and without the ball.This is a new era. Round robin! You have two shots to prove your team is the real deal. WE have two teams in the RPI Top Ten. WE have a slew more competing for spots in the NCAAs.I love this new/old conference. I want deep runs by our teams in the tournament. But I'm enjoying the conference season more than any other in CU history. Great venues. Great players. Great fans. GO JAYS!

[Sumdumguy]

Which conference is Nova leading? Sounds like 2 former BE members are leading as well as 2 MVC teams from last year.

Well unfortunately for you guys, the Big East regular season championship does not go down to tie breakers.

You're right, the current tiebreaker is the extra game CU has won. OMVC: 2 leaders. OBE: 2 leaders. NOVA IS NOT LEADING ANY CONFERENCE RIGHT NOW.

[NJRedman]

There is zero doubt in my mind that Doug would have the same career numbers he has right now if he was in the Big East the last three seasons as opposed to the MVC. He has torched every team he has played.

However, just like the debate as to what his numbers would be in the 80s BE, it is a completely hypothetical discussion. Others could reasonbly come to a different conclusion, and nobody will ever know who is correct.

The only thing i know for sure is he will end up a Top 10 all-time scorer in NCAA history (very possibly Top 5), Two-time MVC player of the year, One-time BE player of the year, One-time Wooden Award Winner (a virtual certainty) , and Three-time 1st team All American.

What he has done for Creighton can't be put into words or numbers. Simply put, without him we would not be in the Big East. I can appreciate a carrer like that on its own merits, and I am extremely lucky to have seen it in person for four years.

Not a chance. You new guys underestimate the rugged schedule we used to have. You have three conferences where the conference leaders are former Big East members (Nova, Cuse, Cincy), McDermotts freshman year he would have been going against 11 teams in conference who would make the NCAA's. Thinking the kid who averaged 14 points in the MVC would "torch" these ranked teams night in night out is unrealistic. The national champs finished 9-9 and in 9th place in the conference. This is why we say the MVC couldn't hold a candle to the old Big East. And when we say the old Big East we mean the 16 team behemoth, not the 1984 3 teams in the Final Four old Big East. We're not trying to put anyone down, just trying to explain how insanely tough that conference line up was. It almost had to break up, it was just too much.

I completely understand that the old Big East has an incredible past. You've had Final Four teams. You've had National Champions. You've had Wooden and Naismith award winners. I get it. But to be fair, the *current* conference leader in the new Big East is Creighton, not 'Nova. *Nobody* is arguing that McDermott was an All-American his freshman year. He was--without argument--a First-Team All-American as a sophomore AND a junior. And this year, McBuckets has poured in 39 points on a couple conference foes and has displayed an incredible array of talent with and without the ball.This is a new era. Round robin! You have two shots to prove your team is the real deal. WE have two teams in the RPI Top Ten. WE have a slew more competing for spots in the NCAAs.I love this new/old conference. I want deep runs by our teams in the tournament. But I'm enjoying the conference season more than any other in CU history. Great venues. Great players. Great fans. GO JAYS!

All american in what conference? Who did he play against? My argument and the argument of those who say he isn;t the greatest ever in the Big East is that he would not have the same career putting up the same #'s if he played against actual Big East competition. It's easy to smoke Evansville, it;s a lot tougher to smoke Cuse in the Dome and the crowd is rocking, or against Huggy Bear in Morgantown when the Mountaineer fans are foaming at the mouth, or against UofL in the YUM Center or smoking Pitt with the Oakland Zoo right on top of you. Oh and you have to go to all of those places in the span of 4 weeks with visits by GTown, Cincy, Marquette and ND mixed in with those road games. I do not think he would show the same poise as a sophmore as he does now.

[NJRedman]

Which conference is Nova leading? Sounds like 2 former BE members are leading as well as 2 MVC teams from last year.

Well unfortunately for you guys, the Big East regular season championship does not go down to tie breakers.

You're right, the current tiebreaker is the extra game CU has won. OMVC: 2 leaders. OBE: 2 leaders. NOVA IS NOT LEADING ANY CONFERENCE RIGHT NOW.

Half a game lead because they played one more game? Are they going to play one more conference game in the season too? Come on now.

My Johnnies just lost our two best big men. Our chances aren't that great right now with only one big man to play almost all 40 minutes against a very good Pinkston. I'm holding out hope but lets be real right now. They are very likely hours from tying you guys for first again. This is the issue, it's hard to have an actual common sense discussion on anything Creighton.

[Sumdumguy]

You said Nova was leading the conference which simply wasn't true, a half game lead is a lead. That can change tomorrow. But for the moment you were incorrect. Get over it.

[chicagojayfan]

I haven't weighed in on this thread, because there are way too many variables that have changed over time that make it almost impossible to judge. Quite simply great players usually don't stick around anymore making the Mullins and Ewings largely a thing of the past. McDermott's college career is more similar to them than almost anyone's in recent memory because he did stick around for 4 years, but he's only spent one year in the Big East.

Obviously, the schedules in the BE are more difficult, but the MVC is a coaching conference where they know the opposition intimately and go to great lengths to take away a team's first and usually second best offensive options. Sometimes it isn't the talent on the floor so much as having experienced and tough defenders willing to do what it takes to execute an effective game plan against an opposing offense (something I don't always see in the Big East even with the overwhelming depth of talent it has on the rosters).

Similarly, there were games that were blowouts in the old MVC that would have not been blowouts in the BE - games where McDermott would have been on the floor and required to take more shots than the opposition. Among the scoring leaders in the NCAA, McDermott has played more games and played with the 3 pt line, but has taken far fewer shots per game than most of them (again, game plans against him and working in an offense that didn't always require him to take more than 20 shots).

Finally, there is the evidence of how he's done against top 25 style defenses/ BE style teams in the past couple of years (Wisconsin, Wichita State (three times), Cincinnati, San Diego State, Arizona State, St. John’s (twice), Villanova (twice), Duke) -- the results 28.4 points on 54.2-percent shooting.... better than his career averages and better than his season averages of this year.

But lets look at that Soph. year also -- Iowa 25 pts, St. Joes - 26 pts, Wichita held him below 20 twice as did Bama in the tournament, but he scored 20 against North Carolina and that would have been a season where during the grind the team would have likely had him shoot more often against a tougher schedule.

There is also the evidence of him playing international ball between his fresh/soph years and playing on the national team's, etc. later. He not only held his own against that type of competition, he excelled.

So while I don't know that any comparisons are even possible against the old greats, I do think he could have put up incredible numbers in the BE over 4 years, maybe not so eye popping, but likely still hitting top 10 on the scoring charts overall. Finally, it's a great way to inaugurate the new Big East by having a national player of the year from our ranks.

[NJRedman]

I haven't weighed in on this thread, because there are way too many variables that have changed over time that make it almost impossible to judge. Quite simply great players usually don't stick around anymore making the Mullins and Ewings largely a thing of the past. McDermott's college career is more similar to them than almost anyone's in recent memory because he did stick around for 4 years, but he's only spent one year in the Big East.

Obviously, the schedules in the BE are more difficult, but the MVC is a coaching conference where they know the opposition intimately and go to great lengths to take away a team's first and usually second best offensive options. Sometimes it isn't the talent on the floor so much as having experienced and tough defenders willing to do what it takes to execute an effective game plan against an opposing offense (something I don't always see in the Big East even with the overwhelming depth of talent it has on the rosters).

Similarly, there were games that were blowouts in the old MVC that would have not been blowouts in the BE - games where McDermott would have been on the floor and required to take more shots than the opposition. Among the scoring leaders in the NCAA, McDermott has played more games and played with the 3 pt line, but has taken far fewer shots per game than most of them (again, game plans against him and working in an offense that didn't always require him to take more than 20 shots).

Finally, there is the evidence of how he's done against top 25 style defenses/ BE style teams in the past couple of years (Wisconsin, Wichita State (three times), Cincinnati, San Diego State, Arizona State, St. John’s (twice), Villanova (twice), Duke) -- the results 28.4 points on 54.2-percent shooting.... better than his career averages and better than his season averages of this year.

But lets look at that Soph. year also -- Iowa 25 pts, St. Joes - 26 pts, Wichita held him below 20 twice as did Bama in the tournament, but he scored 20 against North Carolina and that would have been a season where during the grind the team would have likely had him shoot more often against a tougher schedule.

There is also the evidence of him playing international ball between his fresh/soph years and playing on the national team's, etc. later. He not only held his own against that type of competition, he excelled.

So while I don't know that any comparisons are even possible against the old greats, I do think he could have put up incredible numbers in the BE over 4 years, maybe not so eye popping, but likely still hitting top 10 on the scoring charts overall. Finally, it's a great way to inaugurate the new Big East by having a national player of the year from our ranks.

I'm sorry, but this is what i/m talking about when the old C7 fans try to talk about this with CU fans. The MWC was a coaches conference? Jim Boehiem (SP?), Rick Pitino, Huggy Bear, Jay Wright, JTIII and Calhoun all have national championships or final fours in the Big East. You don't think these guys would have planned to stop Dougie? Once again using a handful of games against "BCS" teams doesn't prove they could handle 7 NCAA tournament teams in a row, which happened in Big East play. The players and defenders in the Big East were much MUCH better than the MWC.

Yes, Dougie came off the floor in blowouts where he could have stayed on the court longer, but guess what? He wouldn't have more than half the league made up of chumps to blow out and inflate his #'s. Go to espn.com and start pulling up Big East schedules from when Doug would have been in the conference and compare it to what he did go up against.

Lets not act like this years Dougie is the same exact guy from his sophomore year. You have no idea how a younger Doug would have handled some of the hostile environments he would have encountered or the variety of defensive schemes he would have seen.

Doug McDermott is a great player, no doubt in my mind the best player this year. BUT he played the majority of his career against sub-par competition, and a handful of games against "BCS" teams doesn't prove he would have been dominate in the most competitive conference ever assembled.

Oh and if he was always in the Big East and did all that you guys think he could do, he would have left for the NBA already. He only came back this season to help his dad transition into the Big East.

[Sumdumguy]

Can't say I paid much attention to the Mountain West, but the Valley has and had a fair number of good coaches, some bad ones too.

Since Wright is on your list of coaches we can assume would have game planned against Doug the evidence says Doug would have been ok.