The Case for Dayton

[Bill Marsh]

Sorry for the long post. Though the overall situation is fluid to a degree, I think it's safe to take the Presidents at their word. They're having a good first year of it. They're under no pressure to change. And they have some amount of time to see what transpires with respect to realignment from here. At the end of the day, they didn't take it to 12 out of the gate for their reasons.

Dash, greatly appreciate the long thoughtful post. Thank you for taking the time to pass on your thoughts. I'm a college basketball junkie, so I much prefer to read a post like yours than most of the drivel on the sports pages. After 16 years of Catholic school myself and after paying for another 16 years of Catholic college tuitions for my kids, the Big East is where my interest is, so your insights are very valuable to me.

I have come around to your way of thinking that expansion will go slow although I initially thought that Fox would pressure the conference to add inventory ASAP. Your thoughts have certainly helped me to see it that way. In addition, I'm looking at the fact that the Vig East still hasn't yet established a permanent office for its headquarters, nor has it yet completed the hiring of all it's staff. Clearly this first year has been a year of transition and the transition period is not yet complete. Then there's the fact that the administration at St. John's has just gone through an ugly period and is still in the process of hiring a president. That appointment is still a few months away. More transition.

Your admonition that the Big east with the assistance of Fox will take the long view and will watch to see how programs grow in stature makes complete sense. Thank you for that advice. The earliest that they will move is a year from now, but I would not be surprised to use the full 5 year window that was suggested by Christopher last summer.

Again, thank you for your thoughts and enjoy the day. Spring is here!

[Bill Marsh]

I just posted on a ACC board the case for X to their league.

You posted the case for Xavier to be included in the ACC? Am I reading that right?

[mtkc12]

Thanks for the three responses--certainly all different perspectives. And thanks for reading my initial note. I wrote it mostly for myself, to see if I could put in writing how I felt about things--sort of self-therapeutic. A couple of thoughts before I go about my day:

1) VCU gave the game away last night. Smart is generally a good coach, but there were times last night where VCU got out-hustled--and they can easily be beaten when that's the case. The missed free throws at the end were costly, but the foul at the end of regulation was inexcusable--both from a coach and player's perspective.

2) XU Brew--you're probably right about the "toxic" nature of the UD/X rivalry, but I do think it could be somewhat controlled with some effort by both schools--start to focus on the what the schools have in common/proximity/etc. Initiate joint charitable events (Habitat for Humanity, etc.) to try and build bonds between the two major Catholic universities in the area. I honestly think the best thing that could happen to that series would be for Dayton to finally win in Cincinnati. That streak seems to have really distorted some Dayton fans' views of the rivalry. And just to be clear, how Christi Mack was treated at UD last year was inexcusable. And I also think Skip Prosser was one of the best coaches (and just downright nice guys) I'll see in my lifetime. There, try and hate me now Xavier fans!

3) It will be fascinating to see how the Big East develops over the next 5-10 years. My view is that some on this board have unrealistic expectations at this point in time--others have a longer-term view. As we all watched on Requiem for the Big East, that period is gone. You danced with the devil that is D1 football, and it tore the conference apart. What you now have is (I think) a terrific new conference--back to its original roots--but you really are starting over to a large extent. Sort of like a divorce where you move to a new town, buy a smaller house, make other changes to your life, etc. Not exactly starting from scratch (you're still you), but you do have to find a new equilibrium and a new mojo. The Buzz Williams departure should be a wake-up call that you're all in a different place than you were 2-3 years ago.

4) Building on #3, the conference is by definition going to be lower profile for a while--maybe forever. Somewhere on this board, someone said that X/Dayton doesn't compare to Georgetown/Syracuse. That's certainly true on a national scale, but for a Dayton fan, that game had great significance. My point is, the Big East teams need to care about and nurture these new rivalries. If you do that, the broader recognition should come. With FS1, you have a partner with deep pockets. It will be interesting as to what changes they propose (like the many later start times, and potentially, if they try to force expansion) for short-term gain: more markets, more chances for interesting games--and how that conflicts/coincides with the goals of the school presidents and Val Ackerman.

5) Final point: Your enemy is not the A10. I saw someone on this board being happy the A-10 came "this close" to going 0-6. That's true, but you could also argue they came "this close" to going 5-1. That would have been good for all of us, because the common enemies of both the Big East and the A10 are the power football conferences. They are the ones who will do everything possible to de-emphasize non-football schools and conferences. If you don't believe this, you are fooling yourself. Syracuse, Pitt, and Louisville are gone from your world forever. The fan who wrote on the ACC board about X's inclusion is not seeing the world as it is. The ACC will never accept a non-football program--they can't. Football always has and always will drive decisions at these schools and conferences. If you accept and embrace this fact, life becomes a lot easier. It's why you lost Notre Dame (and Boston College years before), and it's why the C7 ultimately had to break away. I have no doubt the Big East will be successful in time and in its own unique way. I also have no doubt it will expand to somewhere between 12-16 schools. I believe both Fox and ultimately the presidents and the commissioner will come to that same realization...and I hope that Dayton becomes one of those additional members.

Good luck to all of you, but most of all, GOOD LUCK TO THE DAYTON FLYERS TONIGHT!

[Bill Marsh]

MT KC, you've raised a number of excellent points.

I happen to agree with you on the value of strong rivalries. So, I see the proximity of Dayton to Xavier as a positive, not a negative, similar to the proximity of VCU or Richmond to Georgetown. I don't know how the current membership sees it and that will tell the tail. In this regard, I don't see market overlap as so much of an issue because the Big East members are mostly not local commuter schools. They draw their student bodies regionally and their alums are scattered regionally. Hence their TV ratings have to be studied on a more regional basis.

In addition to its rabid fan base, which is a big plus, Dayton would also be the easternmost of the Midwest schools. You can actually drive from Dayton to MSG in a day. Not everyone can hop on a plane and fly to the tournament, but a lot of people can drive or board a fan bus. With such a rabid fan base, I can see some Dayton fans and students doing that. That can only be a positive for attendance at the BE tournament, which is very important to the success of the conference.

[Frambo]

I hope that Dayton never gets a BEast invite. Hurts me a little to say that as my daughter, in-laws and some friends went to UD. I also taught/coached with friends who attended or played for the Flyers. What bothers me was my experience at the PIG last week. The booing of our players, the beat X shirts, the comments......I just don't see this happening at Cintas, even though I thought the heckling during Monday's practice by 3 students was pretty funny. We came upon a lady we work with, all in her UD garb. She couldn't/wouldn't shake our hands or talk to us due to the X jackets we had on - actually blew us off with some disgust.

We weren't spat upon or called out like the usual stories we hear about attending games there, but I have talked with X fans who swear those took place over the years.....again something I have never seen at Cintas. Add in the treatment Christie Mack got last year and I would rather not play them...even though the Jimmy Carter (not Reagan) streak would be fun to continue.

I also don't want to share the recruiting angle and would much rather go with SLU and an eastern team if expansion occurs.

[DudeAnon]

I hope that Dayton never gets a BEast invite. Hurts me a little to say that as my daughter, in-laws and some friends went to UD. I also taught/coached with friends who attended or played for the Flyers. What bothers me was my experience at the PIG last week. The booing of our players, the beat X shirts, the comments......I just don't see this happening at Cintas, even though I thought the heckling during Monday's practice by 3 students was pretty funny. We came upon a lady we work with, all in her UD garb. She couldn't/wouldn't shake our hands or talk to us due to the X jackets we had on - actually blew us off with some disgust.

We weren't spat upon or called out like the usual stories we hear about attending games there, but I have talked with X fans who swear those took place over the years.....again something I have never seen at Cintas. Add in the treatment Christie Mack got last year and I would rather not play them...even though the Jimmy Carter (not Reagan) streak would be fun to continue.

I also don't want to share the recruiting angle and would much rather go with SLU and an eastern team if expansion occurs.

Call me crazy, but I think I understand some of Dayton's harsher trolls. Imagine if you were a nationally relevant program then fell into irrelevance meanwhile your rival school an hour away was taking their spot. This has essentially been Dayton's reality for the last 20-30 years. I really believe that with Archie and the success they are having the nastier aspects of the rivalry will die down and in its space will come mutual respect.

TL;DR Dayton fans were bitter, but can now be happy with Archie and their success. Everyone wins.

[augkash]

I hope that Dayton never gets a BEast invite. Hurts me a little to say that as my daughter, in-laws and some friends went to UD. I also taught/coached with friends who attended or played for the Flyers. What bothers me was my experience at the PIG last week. The booing of our players, the beat X shirts, the comments......I just don't see this happening at Cintas, even though I thought the heckling during Monday's practice by 3 students was pretty funny. We came upon a lady we work with, all in her UD garb. She couldn't/wouldn't shake our hands or talk to us due to the X jackets we had on - actually blew us off with some disgust.

We weren't spat upon or called out like the usual stories we hear about attending games there, but I have talked with X fans who swear those took place over the years.....again something I have never seen at Cintas. Add in the treatment Christie Mack got last year and I would rather not play them...even though the Jimmy Carter (not Reagan) streak would be fun to continue.

I also don't want to share the recruiting angle and would much rather go with SLU and an eastern team if expansion occurs.

Didn't Christie mack just get a standing ovation at UD? And her husband in the stands with no problems from the fans. In fact he posted a pic on Twitter. The funny thing about rivals even in high school you hear stories about ppl getting spit on and stuff but it probably just hear say

[NJRedman]

Since when the F did X fans speak for all of the Big East? God they are the WORST! The new Cuse fans of the Big East everyone. Congrats!

[DudeAnon]

Since when the F did X fans speak for all of the Big East? God they are the WORST! The new Cuse fans of the Big East everyone. Congrats!

I don't get it, why even acknowledge the troll with 5 posts? I guess we are the worst now.

[FormulaX]

I hope that Dayton never gets a BEast invite. Hurts me a little to say that as my daughter, in-laws and some friends went to UD. I also taught/coached with friends who attended or played for the Flyers. What bothers me was my experience at the PIG last week. The booing of our players, the beat X shirts, the comments......I just don't see this happening at Cintas, even though I thought the heckling during Monday's practice by 3 students was pretty funny. We came upon a lady we work with, all in her UD garb. She couldn't/wouldn't shake our hands or talk to us due to the X jackets we had on - actually blew us off with some disgust.

We weren't spat upon or called out like the usual stories we hear about attending games there, but I have talked with X fans who swear those took place over the years.....again something I have never seen at Cintas. Add in the treatment Christie Mack got last year and I would rather not play them...even though the Jimmy Carter (not Reagan) streak would be fun to continue.

I also don't want to share the recruiting angle and would much rather go with SLU and an eastern team if expansion occurs.

Didn't Christie mack just get a standing ovation at UD? And her husband in the stands with no problems from the fans. In fact he posted a pic on Twitter. The funny thing about rivals even in high school you hear stories about ppl getting spit on and stuff but it probably just hear say

Oh wow. That's good your fans applauded your own alum and Hall of Fame player. Have to start somewhere. Coach Mack stayed up in a box. Away from your mob. For a decade Dayton has grown a "hate Xavier culture" Don't deny it. Start cleaning it up.