VCU vs UVA

[stever20]

I don't get the hype with Dayton. I understand they have a shockingly big local fan base and everything, but Dayton is not even close to being a household name. Most Big East and general college hoops fans already knew of Creighton, Butler, and Xavier before they came here. Dayton has no identity. It would give us too much of a mid-major feel if we added them IMO. They don't have that brand name that most of the other teams here have. DePaul is probably the only school in the conference that isn't a brand name at all. Do we really want to add another in Dayton?

DePaul is 1000000 times the brand name that Dayton is.

[Bulldog_Muskie]

At least depaul is a good school in a great city. Dayton is an average institution in a crap town

[Bill Marsh]

I wouldn't even bother arguing this point. What difference does it make? Anyone could potentially add football. We know as a matter of fact that Villanoa seriously considered the mover to FBS football on 2 separate occasions within the past 15 years. So, was it a mistake to include them.

Georgetown also has a football team. If it became impossible to compete at the highest levels without football, would they be a risk to upgrade and leave the conference? With Ivy League caliber academics and a location in DC to bring back the market lost when Maryland left, Georgetown could be very attractive to the ACC.

To rule out VCU based on a phantom football program would be nuts. And for VCU to add football after getting into the Big East so they could leave for a lower paying conference would be equally nuts. If UConn, Cincinnati, and USF were not able to get into an FBS conference, what chance would VCU have?

The fact is that any school could leave the conference at any time. Members have withdrawn from every conference except the Ivy League. It's not possible to eliminate any possibility of a school withdrawing. That's why they have withdrawal clauses.

Solid points, Bill. However, I still see a stark difference between Nova and Gtown's programs and VCU's phantom one. Nova didn't leave jump to FBS because it would have been too costly to do so if I remember correctly. Nova and Gtown's student body are both significantly smaller than VCU's and the student bodies are also less-inclined to stay in the same region as the school (this is especially true for Gtown). Nova would be absolutely foolish to jump to FBS. I live in Philly and anyone who watches college football only cares about Penn State. Even when Temple had respectable football a couple years ago, the attendance was pitiful and they play at the Link, which is on a subway line, close to the heart of the city, and right off I-95.

If VCU did join the BE and then started football and left, would that be the end of the world? Clearly not, but I'd prefer conference stability over conference instability, and football causes the latter, as we've all seen. However, to be honest, I would love to have UCONN back, even if it meant accepting their football and have them leave in five years. The cost of accepting UCONN's football is worth the benefit of getting a stellar basketball school, especially one with a huge alumni base in NYC. With VCU, the costs aren't worth the benefits, at least, not how I value them.

By now it seems crystal clear that the university presidents are running the show. And, from what I gather, the rumors seem to be that they are not too high on VCU (relative to, say, SLU, Richmond, and Dayton). Why do you (or anyone) think that is? Academics? Potential for football? Public/private and FOI concerns? This is a genuine question, I don't ask in a snarky way to back up my point or anything.

The Big East has the best TV contract outside the P5 by far. Why would VCU join the Big East and then take on the enormous cost of running a football programs of they could leave for a league with a much lower TV revenue stream? They wouldn't. It makes no more sense for them to do that than it would for Georgetown or Villanova. BTW, VCU isn't getting into a P5 conference with a big revenue stream. This football thing is simply a non-issue.

No one has any idea what the presidents are thinking. All of the internet chatter. In the world doesn't add up to inside knowledge. It's waste of time to analyze the trends in internet rumors.

[Bill Marsh]

I don't get the hype with Dayton. I understand they have a shockingly big local fan base and everything, but Dayton is not even close to being a household name. Most Big East and general college hoops fans already knew of Creighton, Butler, and Xavier before they came here. Dayton has no identity. It would give us too much of a mid-major feel if we added them IMO. They don't have that brand name that most of the other teams here have. DePaul is probably the only school in the conference that isn't a brand name at all. Do we really want to add another in Dayton?

Dayton has one thing going for them and one thing only. But that one thing is very important in March. They travel well. If there are any problems selling BE tournament tickets in March, Dayton's stock will rise dramatically.

[Pretzel]

I get the argument against the importance of institutional fit. Institutional fit is definitely an added bonus, but not that big of a deal (e.g., Louisville)

I also can see the argument that VCU was okay before Shaka Smart and will be after so long as the school continues to devote resources to the program (BTW, VCU did NOT sell out their arena pre-final four years. I don't have a link, but I looked this up when a VCU-enthusiast over on the Marquette board made the same claim).

The sell-out streak began Jan 29, 2011; prior to our March 2011 Final Four run. Our capacity was 7,552 at that time. Suites have since been added bringing capacity to the current 7,741. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... ealth-rams

[ElDonBDon]

I get the argument against the importance of institutional fit. Institutional fit is definitely an added bonus, but not that big of a deal (e.g., Louisville)

I also can see the argument that VCU was okay before Shaka Smart and will be after so long as the school continues to devote resources to the program (BTW, VCU did NOT sell out their arena pre-final four years. I don't have a link, but I looked this up when a VCU-enthusiast over on the Marquette board made the same claim).

The sell-out streak began Jan 29, 2011; prior to our March 2011 Final Four run. Our capacity was 7,552 at that time. Suites have since been added bringing capacity to the current 7,741. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... ealth-rams

This link simply takes me to the schedule for that year.

Here is a better link
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/pub ... ttendance/
I'll save you some time
Average attendance for VCU
2010: 6,000 (91st place in DI)
2011: 6,645 (80th place in DI)
2012: 7,622 (70th place in DI, 27% increase from 2010)
And as a benchmark
2004: 4,640 (not in top 100 in DI, 100th place team was Boise State with 5,356)

The thing that I hate most about VCU is its fans. Yes, perhaps more than Dayton fans. Many of the VCU fans that I have interacted with swear that they are some die-hard fanbase, quoting streaks and all. Now, to be sure, I'm not ragging on VCU for exhibiting bandwagoning--the attendance figures for most all teams fluctuate with the current and immediate past success of the team--but don't front like you are something special. At least Dayton walks the walk with respect to attendance.

What really irks me is that after they were not invited to the Big East, more than a few VCU fans had the nerve to question why schools like Seton Hall, Providence, and even St. John's had a place at the table. As if VCU's history can compete with that of any one of those schools. And saying nonsense like "Gtown is blocking VCU because JTIII is scared of Shaka." Please.

I know, I know, fans on the internet/message boards are not a representative sample, but it's the only sample I've got. Clearly, I'm not saying let's not add them for a subjective a reason as "their fans are annoying," but it sure does make them hard to root for (not to mention their gimmicky #6 final ranking banner and "havoc" warmup shirts they wore against Temple).

[Dave]

I'm happy with 10.

But debating expansion candidates, none of SLU, Dayton, or VCU compare to UConn. National Championships, East Coast fan base, NYC market and MSG, national brand and TV viewer impact.

We are a Football FIRST conference. Not a Basketball-only conference.

If we pick up VCU and they bring on football, it is not a threat. If Nova goes FBS, it is not a threat. If we bring on UConn, it is not a threat.

Any program added should be competitive with the top 3 or 4 programs. Otherwise, stay at 10.

[Dave]

The A10 conference is fatally flawed. They are not stable because of UMass. UMass will be the end of the A10.

[DumpsterFireA10]

The A10 conference is fatally flawed. They are not stable because of UMass. UMass will be the end of the A10.

The A-10 is a lot of things, and I think I've said them all.

[Dave]

The A10 conference is fatally flawed. They are not stable because of UMass. UMass will be the end of the A10.

The A-10 is a lot of things, and I think I've said them all.

Yes, but all of the other issues fall short of their fatal association with UMass.