KenPom Rankings Out

[XU85]

Oh, stop it already. Xavier is picked to anywhere between 2-5 in all the pre-season polls I've seen, same range as Georgetown and St. John's. Creighton finished 2nd last year, Butler looks like they might surprise this year. Seems like some of you new guys won't be happy unless all 3 of you are picked to finish 1-2-3 in the league, anything short of that is a sign of major disrespect or something, you guys are a bit sensitive . It's like some of you think you're going to waltz in and dominate, that the rest of the old guard "C7" should bow down before the flagship of the A-10, should kneel before the kings of MVC, or genuflect to the monsters of the Horizon.

Don't get started on disrespect, you have no idea what it was like in the old BE. The arrogance of the big public schools 'Cuse, Ville, UConn, & Pitt, being dismissed out of hand pretty much every year. If someone paid you a compliment it was along the lines of, "you guys we be pretty good this year for a small private school, if things go perfect for you, you could finish as high as 6th, you might even sneak into the dance".

Something strike a nerve or are you always this tightly wound?

[hoyahooligan]

That's the first observation. The second is more complicated.


I must say that we have been welcomed to the Big East in an incredibly positive and enthusiastic manner. However, there still seems to be a slight whiff from C7 fans of wishing the three of us 'well, but not too well'. Why? The BE superiority story is pretty much ingrained in the fandom of the original C7; I wouldn't expect it to be any other way, really, and even in pointing it out I wouldn't characterize it as a negative. But the idea that Butler, Xavier, or Creighton can just roll in and do well, and consistently? That's not a thought most C7 fans want to entertain, because if it plays out like that, it brings up some questions that will (depending on which team you root for) range from queasy to vomit inducing. So, while being extended a very positive and genuine invite, the C7 seems to be thinking, best of luck, because really what we're thinking is, we hope you get your ducks in line pretty quickly, because this is a whole new ball of wax, and we don't want you dragging us down.

And again, I get that. And when that's your default basis for decision making, naturally the idea of Creighton at .500 or better in the conference (or whatever overachieving would be) is just something that can't be processed, because such an outcome isn't attainable. You cannot beat Big East teams with a bunch of Valley players; the same argument as was made last season, just in a different package. If our B team shows up and does well, proving you can amass strong BE results WHILE DOING SO WITH FAR, FAR LESS RESOURCES, then there's absolutely no excuse for the non-big 3 (Nova, GTown, Marq) to have underachieved to the degree that they have over the years, and that idea can't be entertained. Better to banish it.

Before you run in here and say, WTF, this guy is saying it's a conspiracy that C7 fans want the new three to fail, a)that's not what I'm saying at all and b)as C7 fans, you probably don't even realize you give off such an attitude. I'd bet $$$ that Butler and X fans agree with me, too, but even if they don't, we can smell it. And it's why dander gets raised when it starts to rear its head which is what's happening here: we see a blanket dismissal based on nothing other than reading a few dubious articles and sprinkling it with what, as C7 fans, you suspect isn't there (talent, because of your disdain for the players we could only get as a member of an inferior league), as fightin' words.

So if Chief Wiggum et al. want to wax rhapsodically about how there's no way for us to excel this year, bring it on. We're up for it. And if we blow, I'll be the first person on here to say, you were right. What we ask is you do the same.

//rant

As an addendum, I would like to give a shout out to one person on here who, last season, pretty much owned up to what I just said: admin. Total props for having the balls to come out and say, yes it's great that X and CU have done so well, but I'm really pretty disappointed in the efforts of the C7, because I wanted them to represent what we stood for in the BE in a much better manner than they did - teams joining from a lesser league and doing this well shouldn't be possible. That's not in quotes, because I didn't go find the thread where he said it (it's from memory), but I remember reading it and thinking, FINALLY SOMEONE HAS THE STONES TO SAY WHAT A LOT OF THE C7 IS THINKING. So, bravo for that, Admin.

Well said! Although far from scientific based on such a small sample, it seems even the coaches may underestimate the 3 new comers (or overestimate the C-7). Last year the coaches picked Butler, X, and Creighton to finish 9,7, and 3 respectively, and they finished 9, 3, and 2. X is picked 4th by the coaches this year, which is one of the lower predicted finishes amongst the available polls.

Seems like the coaches nailed Butler and Creighton. Sure they messed up on Xavier, but 2/3 isn't bad.

[SJHooper]

I'm not at all saying things don't need to change for SJ…they do. It's pathetic to have an NYC based team with so much history staying down for so long. It's unacceptable. New Yorkers just like those in Philly expect to win. We are not some small market team you can forget about and be ok with mediocrity. My point was that you were comparing golden age Nova to a braindead SJ team in that time frame prior to 2011.

Nova as a top 5 team was absolutely overrated taking immediate exits in both the tourney and BET. I don't care it's UConn. SJ has beaten UConn twice…once in 2011 when they were #9 and again in 2012 their last year in the Big East. They are not unbeatable. Very good, yes. But Nova was the top 5 team, not them. According to rankings Nova was decidedly better. Rough draw in the first round but top 5 teams should be able to win those games.

SJ needs to pull its weight if our conference is to get respect…I get that. We are a huge part. And we need to start making tourneys instead of excuses. I wish we had a great coach and Lavin was an assistant just for recruiting.

[marquette]

The arrogance of the big public schools 'Cuse, Ville, UConn, & Pitt, being dismissed out of hand pretty much every year.

'Cuse isn't public and it's smaller than St. John's and DePaul. Not that it really matters.

[Bill Marsh]

I'm not at all saying things don't need to change for SJ…they do. It's pathetic to have an NYC based team with so much history staying down for so long. It's unacceptable. New Yorkers just like those in Philly expect to win. We are not some small market team you can forget about and be ok with mediocrity. My point was that you were comparing golden age Nova to a braindead SJ team in that time frame prior to 2011.

Nova as a top 5 team was absolutely overrated taking immediate exits in both the tourney and BET. I don't care it's UConn. SJ has beaten UConn twice…once in 2011 when they were #9 and again in 2012 their last year in the Big East. They are not unbeatable. Very good, yes. But Nova was the top 5 team, not them. According to rankings Nova was decidedly better. Rough draw in the first round but top 5 teams should be able to win those games.

SJ needs to pull its weight if our conference is to get respect…I get that. We are a huge part. And we need to start making tourneys instead of excuses. I wish we had a great coach and Lavin was an assistant just for recruiting.

Do you realize how ridiculous your comments about Villanova sound? Seriously. You may want to re-read them and revise.

"Nova as a top 5 team was absolutely overrated. . . I don't care it's UConn."

That is an absolutely absurd statement. You don't care that the lost to the national champs, the #1 team in the country. The #5 team in the country is NOT expected to beat the #1 team on a neutral court.

You write as if the only reason that UConn advanced to #1 is because they upset #5. Look at the other teams who lost to UConn on their run to the title:

#2 Kentucky (preseason #1)
#3 Florida (#1 going into the tournament)
#8 Iowa State
#11 Michigan State

Following your reasoning all 4 of those teams as well as Villanova were "absolutely overrated" because they didn't beat UConn. Please! It was by successfully running that gauntlet that UConn proved that at season' send, they were the best team in the country.

Villanova unfortunately got a bad draw a lot earlier in the tournament than anyone expected. Losing to UConn proved nothing negative about Villanova and took nothing away from all they accomplished last season.

[Westbrook#36]

Oh, stop it already. Xavier is picked to anywhere between 2-5 in all the pre-season polls I've seen, same range as Georgetown and St. John's. Creighton finished 2nd last year, Butler looks like they might surprise this year. Seems like some of you new guys won't be happy unless all 3 of you are picked to finish 1-2-3 in the league, anything short of that is a sign of major disrespect or something, you guys are a bit sensitive . It's like some of you think you're going to waltz in and dominate, that the rest of the old guard "C7" should bow down before the flagship of the A-10, should kneel before the kings of MVC, or genuflect to the monsters of the Horizon.

Don't get started on disrespect, you have no idea what it was like in the old BE. The arrogance of the big public schools 'Cuse, Ville, UConn, & Pitt, being dismissed out of hand pretty much every year. If someone paid you a compliment it was along the lines of, "you guys we be pretty good this year for a small private school, if things go perfect for you, you could finish as high as 6th, you might even sneak into the dance".

Something strike a nerve or are you always this tightly wound?

First you might want to calibrate your sarcasm meter, secondly why are you so worked up about how Xavier's being portrayed by the old guard? You guys complain about an east coast/C7 bias, well I think you guys do a good job of display a new school bias. I don't think some of you appreciate how hard it is going to be consistently in top half of this league year in and year out.

[Westbrook#36]

The arrogance of the big public schools 'Cuse, Ville, UConn, & Pitt, being dismissed out of hand pretty much every year.

'Cuse isn't public and it's smaller than St. John's and DePaul. Not that it really matters.

My bad on the public school thing(brain fart), but in fairness Syracuse does have a larger enrollment than St. John's(barely), and only like 2,000 less than DePaul. Point is the same, they're arrogant cocky condescending mofo's, I know it, you know it.

[Westbrook#36]

I'd complain about St. John's being ranked too high/overrated and losing in the 2nd round of the NCAA's, ... if you know that stuff actually happened once in awhile.

[marquette]

The arrogance of the big public schools 'Cuse, Ville, UConn, & Pitt, being dismissed out of hand pretty much every year.

'Cuse isn't public and it's smaller than St. John's and DePaul. Not that it really matters.

My bad on the public school thing(brain fart), but in fairness Syracuse does have a larger enrollment than St. John's(barely), and only like 2,000 less than DePaul. Point is the same, they're arrogant cocky condescending mofo's, I know it, you know it.

No arguments on the arrogance/condescension. And they do have resources closer to a big state school than most of ours (probably only Georgetown is on that level).

As to enrollments, we must be looking at different numbers. I've got St. John's at 21,354 and 'Cuse at 21,267. Not really an important distinction since that can change easily year-to-year, I'm just a stubborn stickler.

[Bill Marsh]

'Cuse isn't public and it's smaller than St. John's and DePaul. Not that it really matters.

My bad on the public school thing(brain fart), but in fairness Syracuse does have a larger enrollment than St. John's(barely), and only like 2,000 less than DePaul. Point is the same, they're arrogant cocky condescending mofo's, I know it, you know it.

No arguments on the arrogance/condescension. And they do have resources closer to a big state school than most of ours (probably only Georgetown is on that level).

As to enrollments, we must be looking at different numbers. I've got St. John's at 21,354 and 'Cuse at 21,267. Not really an important distinction since that can change easily year-to-year, I'm just a stubborn stickler.

I'm a stickler too. Included on the Syracuse campus is the SUNY College of Environmental Science & Forestry which enrollment 600 undergrads and another 1600 graduate students. They are not counted in the Syracuse enrollment because they are technically not SU students. But they are on the campus and in terms of student life, SU is their home. With them included, SU is in fact home to more students than St. John's.