The Case for Dayton

[PMThor]

Wow, so insightful. This is a Big East board, of course there should be more members fans than wannabe fans on the site. It's the way it should be.

And OF COURSE there should be more X fans on this thread. We don't want, and will actively petition against the inclusion of dayton. It's just common sense. I pose the question to any dayton fans, how would you feel if Wright State was being considered for the A10? Of course you wouldn't want it. That's where Xavier is.

[DudeAnon]

Bah, enough of the bickering! Anyone want to talk about the amazing games that are on right now?

[PMThor]

I am rooting for the A10 in every game (except dayton, my crutch to bear). It's kind of awesome to see a league do well that your program helped to build to this level. X had a big part in this, and it's GREAT to see them doing well. Congratulations Atlantic Ten, I for one am proud of you. Brings a smile to my face.

[marquette]

Bah, enough of the bickering! Anyone want to talk about the amazing games that are on right now?

You could try the non-big east ncaa thread, but you might find a similar conversation there.

[Hoopfan]

Do you see any other teams other than dayton fans from the A10 coming to this board, pleading, begging, prostrating themselves to join the Big East? Nope. Yet here they are. They need to learn their place.

But there is truth to this.

I don't care what you think about my program, because quite honestly, I don't think about yours at all.

Wow, so insightful. This is a Big East board, of course there should be more members fans than wannabe fans on the site. It's the way it should be.

And OF COURSE there should be more X fans on this thread. We don't want, and will actively petition against the inclusion of dayton. It's just common sense. I pose the question to any dayton fans, how would you feel if Wright State was being considered for the A10? Of course you wouldn't want it. That's where Xavier is.

Wait so you don't care or you do care? Which way is it? Im confused

[ohiohsbball]

Wow, so insightful. This is a Big East board, of course there should be more members fans than wannabe fans on the site. It's the way it should be.

And OF COURSE there should be more X fans on this thread. We don't want, and will actively petition against the inclusion of dayton. It's just common sense. I pose the question to any dayton fans, how would you feel if Wright State was being considered for the A10? Of course you wouldn't want it. That's where Xavier is.

Look, I agree with a lot of what you say and I completely get Dayton fans coming to a BE message board and stirring stuff. As I said earlier, I have a lot of free time on my hands now so being a big basketball fan, I look at message boards and blogs. What I don't understand, is Xavier fans upset about Dayton fans on the BE message board, but go to an A10 message board and it is cluttered with Xavier people. A lot of Xavier people on the A10 board raining on Dayton's parade with their win over Ohio State today.

I have been to Xavier's campus on a couple recruiting trips with my basketball kids and it was an awesome experience. The women's basketball staff took wonderful of my kids and I really appreciate it. To be honest, we were treated better there than we were at Dayton. 95% of the fan base at Dayton are really good people, as they are with Xavier. The problem is the other 5% of the people that have nothing better to do litter boards with stupid comments and it gives schools a bad rep. I'm the first to agree with you, I strongly feel that if the BE invite came to Dayton, they'd accept real quick despite what you read on UDpride. 95% of the Xavier people are great people; I've been to the Cintas Center a few times and have had a good time. Again, the other 5% are real aholes.

What I completely disagree with is that Xavier all of a sudden wants nothing to do with Dayton; that is a small select few fans not the majority (I talk to a lot more people than just message boards). Here is why I disagree:

1. UD Arena and Cintas Center are electric for this game. You can say Xavier's is Dayton's superbowl if you want, but I was at UD game at the Cintas Center and a LaSalle game at the Cintas Center and the atmosphere is not even comparable.
2. I don't buy the same market bs; look at all of the rating networks have released; Dayton is a seperate market and ranks in the top 75 in viewer ratings, and according to ESPN is in the top 25 basketball ratings.
3. Big East wants big crowds and big arenas...UD arena, despite Xavier fans getting STDs there, does just hat.
4. The BE needs rivalries if the conference wants to thrive and bring viewers to FS1. You can say rivalries develop overtime and maybe they will in this conference, but there are no more Georgetown/Syracuse type games anymore.
5. Xavier wants all of the Southern Ohio market for recruiting. Well, I'm pretty Xavier isn't exactly as dominant in the state as Ohio State and I think Dayton and Xavier have been in the same league for decades and it was a non-issue.
6. Despite Xavier saying they have dominated the series, Dayton does lead overall. Yes, as of late Xavier has done very well, but that is like Ohio State going to the SEC and blocking Michigan because of recruiting when Ohio State has dominated the last decade in football. Duke and North Carolina seem to do just fine separated by about 15 feet.
7. It's not just about mens basketball; academics, institution, money are items that are pretty similar between the two schools. You also have to look at women's sports and within the last 5 years, Dayton has league titles in volleyball, soccer, and basketball which will help the whole Title IX issue.

Despite what you think, the presidents at the two schools have a great relationship. This will be the last time I post about Dayton/Xavier on this board because this whole topic is nothing but a headache. If they end up in the same league, great because a rivalry is renewed. If not, great because then Xavier can be happy and try to build a final four caliber team that in a league in its first year was less than stellar.

[BEX]

if your goal is to play in the BE, you would do well not to badmouth the BE. If the A-10 is so great, why would every single team there move to the BE if they had an Invite? You're saying we would love to be considered but, meanwhile, you suck. Basically, the A-10 is having a good year. Great. Probably won't be the same next year. Our league is not even a year old. We have a great conference right out of the gate and don't need to add right away or if I was in charge, never.

[Xudash]

Wow, so insightful. This is a Big East board, of course there should be more members fans than wannabe fans on the site. It's the way it should be.

And OF COURSE there should be more X fans on this thread. We don't want, and will actively petition against the inclusion of dayton. It's just common sense. I pose the question to any dayton fans, how would you feel if Wright State was being considered for the A10? Of course you wouldn't want it. That's where Xavier is.

Look, I agree with a lot of what you say and I completely get Dayton fans coming to a BE message board and stirring stuff. As I said earlier, I have a lot of free time on my hands now so being a big basketball fan, I look at message boards and blogs. What I don't understand, is Xavier fans upset about Dayton fans on the BE message board, but go to an A10 message board and it is cluttered with Xavier people. A lot of Xavier people on the A10 board raining on Dayton's parade with their win over Ohio State today.

I have been to Xavier's campus on a couple recruiting trips with my basketball kids and it was an awesome experience. The women's basketball staff took wonderful of my kids and I really appreciate it. To be honest, we were treated better there than we were at Dayton. 95% of the fan base at Dayton are really good people, as they are with Xavier. The problem is the other 5% of the people that have nothing better to do litter boards with stupid comments and it gives schools a bad rep. I'm the first to agree with you, I strongly feel that if the BE invite came to Dayton, they'd accept real quick despite what you read on UDpride. 95% of the Xavier people are great people; I've been to the Cintas Center a few times and have had a good time. Again, the other 5% are real aholes.

What I completely disagree with is that Xavier all of a sudden wants nothing to do with Dayton; that is a small select few fans not the majority (I talk to a lot more people than just message boards). Here is why I disagree:

1. UD Arena and Cintas Center are electric for this game. You can say Xavier's is Dayton's superbowl if you want, but I was at UD game at the Cintas Center and a LaSalle game at the Cintas Center and the atmosphere is not even comparable.
2. I don't buy the same market bs; look at all of the rating networks have released; Dayton is a seperate market and ranks in the top 75 in viewer ratings, and according to ESPN is in the top 25 basketball ratings.
3. Big East wants big crowds and big arenas...UD arena, despite Xavier fans getting STDs there, does just hat.
4. The BE needs rivalries if the conference wants to thrive and bring viewers to FS1. You can say rivalries develop overtime and maybe they will in this conference, but there are no more Georgetown/Syracuse type games anymore.
5. Xavier wants all of the Southern Ohio market for recruiting. Well, I'm pretty Xavier isn't exactly as dominant in the state as Ohio State and I think Dayton and Xavier have been in the same league for decades and it was a non-issue.
6. Despite Xavier saying they have dominated the series, Dayton does lead overall. Yes, as of late Xavier has done very well, but that is like Ohio State going to the SEC and blocking Michigan because of recruiting when Ohio State has dominated the last decade in football. Duke and North Carolina seem to do just fine separated by about 15 feet.
7. It's not just about mens basketball; academics, institution, money are items that are pretty similar between the two schools. You also have to look at women's sports and within the last 5 years, Dayton has league titles in volleyball, soccer, and basketball which will help the whole Title IX issue.

Despite what you think, the presidents at the two schools have a great relationship. This will be the last time I post about Dayton/Xavier on this board because this whole topic is nothing but a headache. If they end up in the same league, great because a rivalry is renewed. If not, great because then Xavier can be happy and try to build a final four caliber team that in a league in its first year was less than stellar.

You seem like you're a reasonable poster, except for when you tell people their comments are stupid, when you otherwise have no idea of whether or not they're telling the truth. Just so you know, I go up to Cincinnati for one game per year (from Florida) and I sit in the President's suite when I do that. You might say I have access, which is what you were questioning earlier. My access goes beyond that, but I'm not going to comment on that. Why do I bring that up now? Because of some of the comments you've made here. Am I going to directly refute some of what you've written here? No, I'm not. Doing so may otherwise make public information or comments that were never intended to see the light of day.

I will share this much with you. You are correct to note that the leadership of the two universities enjoy a good relationship. Beyond that, your first sentence under #7 may or may not translate to Xavier having the same disposition towards UD in the near future as it did when it saved UD"s behind by getting it into the A10 in the mid-90's. Of course, that assumes X would have to have a disposition involving UD and expansion at all, either in the near term or ever.

I can't imagine anyone doubts the intensity of the rivalry between Xavier and UD, especially those who are honest with themselves and familiar with it. But you are coming at this from the vantage point of a big basketball fan living in Ohio. If expansion hits the agenda for a President's meeting and various schools are considered and UD is one of those schools, this one game may make someone's Ben Franklin list, but it isn't going to be high on it or heavily weighted for decisioning purposes within that group. Frankly, most fans of the C7 schools simply don't care about this, and certainly care much, much more about their own schools settling into their own nice, solid competitive match-ups moving forward.

Are the Cincinnati and Dayton television markets one and the same? No, of course not. Let's go to the Bible: http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/corporate/us/en/public%20factsheets/tv/nielsen-2012-local-DMA-TV-penetration.pdf. Does that benefit Dayton in this case? Absolutely not, because it's market isn't regarded as being strategic to the conference. If you still have the list up, take a gander at St. Louis' position on it, and then consider that it also pulls in a new state. Do we now get the remarks about "no one watches SLU in SL"? Does anyone truly believe Fox isn't considering the down stream positioning of the brand and is otherwise inclined to make decisions solely on current data? Nope, the television markets between Cincinnati and Dayton are just that: marketS. But they're too close and Dayton's market isn't meaningful enough, especially considering the opportunity to grab St. Louis, absent a downstream opportunity to grab something that isn't even on the radar screen yet, and otherwise consider another eastern market for conference balance.

Xavier isn't exactly restricting itself to recruiting in Southern Ohio, so it doesn't want that area to itself, per se; it wants its shot at the best talent that comes from that area, but that is the extent of that. X recruits nationally now, and continues to build success doing so.

I'm not sure what level of relevancy your #6 achieves in all this. Ohio State and UM are hyper-established "BCS" schools that aren't going anywhere with respect to conference affiliation. Same goes for Chapel Hill and Duke. Beyond that, I'm not sure how you define "as of late" when it comes to Xavier's standing in the series. The facts are the facts.

The C7 made a brave, solid decision to take themselves back to their roots. They decided they needed to add schools. Given the Fox deal and the MSG deal, they had to get that right. Xavier, Creighton and Butler became immediately obvious to them. No other program achieved that status. A conference move was available. Xavier took it, along with Butler, as far as the A10 was concerned. Creighton took it from the MVC. The reasons were obvious. These programs and schools were positioned to make the moves because of their resumes and go-forward potential and sustainability. Dayton does not have the resume, it just doesn't. It has resources and fan support, but a terrible track record, as compared to what the Big East expects to accomplish in the long run. Beyond that, and this is the bottom-line and I'm not trying to be mean about it, Dayton's biggest problem is that it is in Dayton - -it's too close to Xavier (no, this isn't about comparing anything to the Research Triangle) and its television market is a BIG problem.

[PMThor]

Wow, so insightful. This is a Big East board, of course there should be more members fans than wannabe fans on the site. It's the way it should be.

And OF COURSE there should be more X fans on this thread. We don't want, and will actively petition against the inclusion of dayton. It's just common sense. I pose the question to any dayton fans, how would you feel if Wright State was being considered for the A10? Of course you wouldn't want it. That's where Xavier is.

Look, I agree with a lot of what you say and I completely get Dayton fans coming to a BE message board and stirring stuff. As I said earlier, I have a lot of free time on my hands now so being a big basketball fan, I look at message boards and blogs. What I don't understand, is Xavier fans upset about Dayton fans on the BE message board, but go to an A10 message board and it is cluttered with Xavier people. A lot of Xavier people on the A10 board raining on Dayton's parade with their win over Ohio State today.

I have been to Xavier's campus on a couple recruiting trips with my basketball kids and it was an awesome experience. The women's basketball staff took wonderful of my kids and I really appreciate it. To be honest, we were treated better there than we were at Dayton. 95% of the fan base at Dayton are really good people, as they are with Xavier. The problem is the other 5% of the people that have nothing better to do litter boards with stupid comments and it gives schools a bad rep. I'm the first to agree with you, I strongly feel that if the BE invite came to Dayton, they'd accept real quick despite what you read on UDpride. 95% of the Xavier people are great people; I've been to the Cintas Center a few times and have had a good time. Again, the other 5% are real aholes.

What I completely disagree with is that Xavier all of a sudden wants nothing to do with Dayton; that is a small select few fans not the majority (I talk to a lot more people than just message boards). Here is why I disagree:

1. UD Arena and Cintas Center are electric for this game. You can say Xavier's is Dayton's superbowl if you want, but I was at UD game at the Cintas Center and a LaSalle game at the Cintas Center and the atmosphere is not even comparable.
2. I don't buy the same market bs; look at all of the rating networks have released; Dayton is a seperate market and ranks in the top 75 in viewer ratings, and according to ESPN is in the top 25 basketball ratings.
3. Big East wants big crowds and big arenas...UD arena, despite Xavier fans getting STDs there, does just hat.
4. The BE needs rivalries if the conference wants to thrive and bring viewers to FS1. You can say rivalries develop overtime and maybe they will in this conference, but there are no more Georgetown/Syracuse type games anymore.
5. Xavier wants all of the Southern Ohio market for recruiting. Well, I'm pretty Xavier isn't exactly as dominant in the state as Ohio State and I think Dayton and Xavier have been in the same league for decades and it was a non-issue.
6. Despite Xavier saying they have dominated the series, Dayton does lead overall. Yes, as of late Xavier has done very well, but that is like Ohio State going to the SEC and blocking Michigan because of recruiting when Ohio State has dominated the last decade in football. Duke and North Carolina seem to do just fine separated by about 15 feet.
7. It's not just about mens basketball; academics, institution, money are items that are pretty similar between the two schools. You also have to look at women's sports and within the last 5 years, Dayton has league titles in volleyball, soccer, and basketball which will help the whole Title IX issue.

Despite what you think, the presidents at the two schools have a great relationship. This will be the last time I post about Dayton/Xavier on this board because this whole topic is nothing but a headache. If they end up in the same league, great because a rivalry is renewed. If not, great because then Xavier can be happy and try to build a final four caliber team that in a league in its first year was less than stellar.

Irrelevant. Irrelevant. Irrelevant. And Irrelevant again. Did I say your "points" are irrelevant? Yeah, they are.

It doesn't matter if you think dayton brings something to the Big East. X will fight it. It's that simple. Get it into your head, Xavier will fight dayton joining the league. Get it? Pretty simple.

[notkirkcameron]

What I completely disagree with is that Xavier all of a sudden wants nothing to do with Dayton; that is a small select few fans not the majority (I talk to a lot more people than just message boards). Here is why I disagree:

The Dayton fans on this board have convinced me that Dayton is like that creepy ex-girlfriend who says she's over you but won't stop stalking you.

1. UD Arena and Cintas Center are electric for this game. You can say Xavier's is Dayton's superbowl if you want, but I was at UD game at the Cintas Center and a LaSalle game at the Cintas Center and the atmosphere is not even comparable.

Did you ever think that may be more a commentary on LaSalle than on Dayton? I mean, outside of the Big 5, does anybody care about LaSalle at all? Other than their pretty flukish Sweet 16 run last year, the last time they won an NCAA Tournament game, George Bush was President....The first one.

2. I don't buy the same market bs; look at all of the rating networks have released; Dayton is a seperate market and ranks in the top 75 in viewer ratings, and according to ESPN is in the top 25 basketball ratings.

You say "Top 75" like it means something. If added, and treated as its own market, Dayton would be the second-smallest TV market in the Big East, ahead of only Omaha.

3. Big East wants big crowds and big arenas...UD arena, despite Xavier fans getting STDs there, does just hat.

You act like Dayton is the only school that puts fans in the seats.

4. The BE needs rivalries if the conference wants to thrive and bring viewers to FS1. You can say rivalries develop overtime and maybe they will in this conference, but there are no more Georgetown/Syracuse type games anymore.

Are you really comparing Xavier-Dayton to Georgetown-Syracuse? Really?

5. Xavier wants all of the Southern Ohio market for recruiting. Well, I'm pretty Xavier isn't exactly as dominant in the state as Ohio State and I think Dayton and Xavier have been in the same league for decades and it was a non-issue.

Well, let's clarify some terminology here.

Dayton and Xavier have only been in the same CONFERENCE from 1988-1993 (Midwest Collegiate) and from 1995-2013 (A-10). So yes, it's "decades" and "the same league" in the technical sense, but we are talking about a tradition of conference rivalry that doesn't even predate Michael Jackson's "Thriller" album (as opposed to most of Dayton's basketball successes, which do).

But your choice of the word "league" is an interesting one, as during that same time where Dayton and Xavier were in the same conference......

Dayton: 3 conference titles, 2 conference tournament titles, 6 NCAA Tournament appearances, 2 NCAA Tournament wins.
Xavier: 12 conference titles, 8 conference tournament titles, 21 NCAA Tournament appearances, 22 NCAA Tournament wins, 6 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s.

So yea, Dayton and Xavier have been in the same conference for some time, but Xavier has been out of Dayton's league for a while now.

6. Despite Xavier saying they have dominated the series, Dayton does lead overall. Yes, as of late Xavier has done very well, but that is like Ohio State going to the SEC and blocking Michigan because of recruiting when Ohio State has dominated the last decade in football. Duke and North Carolina seem to do just fine separated by about 15 feet.

This is the second and third major rivalry you've compared Dayton/Xavier to.

Dayton is not Michigan.
Dayton is not Ohio State.
Dayton is not Duke.
Dayton is not North Carolina.
Dayton is not Syracuse.
Dayton is not Georgetown.

Dayton/Xavier is nothing like any of those rivalries. Those rivalries are so heated because BOTH TEAMS WIN THINGS and their matchups often have (or had) implications in the national title race.

Conversely, nobody cares about how "great" Dayton was way back when. Since 1980, Xavier leads the series 45-24, that's almost a 2-to-1 clip. Put another way, if Dayton and Xavier were to play six games, it would not be unreasonable to assume that Dayton would only win two, and Xavier would win four. That's domination.

7. It's not just about mens basketball; academics, institution, money are items that are pretty similar between the two schools. You also have to look at women's sports and within the last 5 years, Dayton has league titles in volleyball, soccer, and basketball which will help the whole Title IX issue.

Academics (US News Rankings)
Xavier: #4 among midwest regional universities
Dayton: #112 among national universities

I'm sure the Dayton fans will read whatever Rorscach they want into that, but as an outsider, what that says to me is that Dayton offers more programs, but Xavier offers BETTER programs.

Also, that's great that Dayton has league titles in women's volleyball, women's soccer, and women's basketball. I'm not sure how they "help with the whole Title IX issue" unless you fundamentally misunderstand what Title IX is. Likewise, congrats to the Lady Flyers, but nobody cares. This isn't a league built on volleyball. It's a league built on men's basketball, of which, Dayton doesn't exactly have the kind of track record this league is looking for.

Marquette and DePaul left Dayton behind in new conference formation when they could have brought the Flyers along TWICE (Conference USA and New Big East). Flyers fans should get the hint.