4th Team

[TheHall]

Why has this become a thread about whether Seton Hall will be the Big East's 4th team?

Are you new to the board? j/k

You know very well why it turned this way, someone said something not complementary about Seton Hall. It seems you upset the Seton Hall faithful if you tell the truth.

I was upset when we lost to FDU, why would I be upset now. In case you missed it we won a crucial BE road game this weekend. Actually SHU winning pissed a lot of the rest of this board off apparently, get it right. Btw confusing giving opinions about future events and the truth is the definition of a weak sports argument.

[TheHall]

Point of clarification XUFan, UConn missed the tourney last year because they were ineligible for the post season. The oBE was scary deep last year, and they would have been yet another BE team in the tourney mix had they actually cared about the academic performance of their student athletes.

I think the key to all of this is going to be who each team beats. If PC, G'twn or even SHU (don't want to piss off our friends from Newark) gets some wins vs the teams that end up at the top of the conference (right now that's looking like Nova, XU and CU) then they'll be able to make a better case. If they end up with 10 conf wins but they are all from sweeping the 5 bottom teams, then it's not so impressive.

If I were to rank teams right now I'd say:
1. PC - no terrible losses (now the SHU loss doesn't look as bad as it did 2 weeks ago); beat CU
2. G'twn - 1 bad loss; 2 good wins vs VCU and K St.
3. SHU - 2 terrible losses and no good wins.

You just made the case for lumping SHU in with PC & Gtown, which is the point I agree with. But also then how can you say no good wins when we don't know if winning at PC or Gtown for that matter will turn out to be really good wins. You gave credit to PC saying the SHu loss doesn't look so bad after only 2 weeks lol. If you're just taking a snapshot of now, then no kidding. I'm not making the case for SHU right now, just a pathway like you did.

[Westbrook36]

Why has this become a thread about whether Seton Hall will be the Big East's 4th team?

Are you new to the board? j/k

You know very well why it turned this way, someone said something not complementary about Seton Hall. It seems you upset the Seton Hall faithful if you tell the truth.

I was upset when we lost to FDU, why would I be upset now. In case you missed it we won a crucial BE road game this weekend. Actually SHU winning pissed a lot of the rest of this board off apparently, get it right. Btw confusing giving opinions about future events and the truth is the definition of a weak sports argument.

Apparently your upset enough to keep this thread going 7 pages deep now, 5 of them arguing about Seton Hall's team/resume, so I'd say you're upset. If not you would've drop it or wash your hands of it, instead your banging your head against a wall of opinion that probably isn't going to change. How quaint, a weak sauce comment, so the majority of this board's opinion of the truth is weak?, but Seton Hall fans version of it is correct and right. That's the definition of weak right there.

[GumbyDamnit!]

I think the key to all of this is going to be who each team beats. If PC, G'twn or even SHU (don't want to piss off our friends from Newark) gets some wins vs the teams that end up at the top of the conference (right now that's looking like Nova, XU and CU) then they'll be able to make a better case. If they end up with 10 conf wins but they are all from sweeping the 5 bottom teams, then it's not so impressive.

If I were to rank teams right now I'd say:
1. PC - no terrible losses (now the SHU loss doesn't look as bad as it did 2 weeks ago); beat CU
2. G'twn - 1 bad loss; 2 good wins vs VCU and K St.
3. SHU - 2 terrible losses and no good wins.

You just made the case for lumping SHU in with PC & Gtown, which is the point I agree with. But also then how can you say no good wins when we don't know if winning at PC or Gtown for that matter will turn out to be really good wins. You gave credit to PC saying the SHu loss doesn't look so bad after only 2 weeks lol. If you're just taking a snapshot of now, then no kidding. I'm not making the case for SHU right now, just a pathway like you did.

Hall, it seems no comment is going to satisfy you. Look at the original post. I had SHU in as a potential team; and did the same above. As in: "You're saying there's a chance?" (cue Jim Carey in Dumb & Dumber) Yes, there is always a chance, and with recent play SHU now has a slight pulse, when entering into conference play it was on death's door. A SHU fan looking into the future is going to see nothing but compelling wins from here on out. Every fan of every school on this board stated that their team was going to do this and do that when looking into their crystal balls. There was an awful LOT of optimism that went unfulfilled. So as much as I admire your enthusiasm we can only look at snapshots and make value judgements based on today.

In terms of good wins I am talking about wins vs. current tourney teams. That is how SHU or any school will be judged come tourney time. We can't say that Gtwn and PC are on the bubble and then claim that those two wins are quality wins YET. 2 weeks ago the SHU loss looked bad for PC, but you guys have since played much better and your RPI is more respectable (I was actually giving SHU credit there, but you felt I was giving the credit to PC for some reason). But here's the issue that I pointed it out in a previous comment. SHU needs to beat CU, VU or XU. Those are the 3 solid BE tourney teams left on your schedule. Sweeping Butler, SJU, DePaul, and even PC & Gtwn, might not mean a thing come March because those team might not be tourney teams. And if they are "tourney teams" that just means that SHU's job of getting in the dance will be that much harder with added competition. Add that in to losses vs. two teams with RPI's over 200 at home, and that you have already squandered two home opportunities vs. CU and VU, and you can see why, objectively, SHU is running out of runway. SHU realistically needs to win at least 9 of its last 13 games (with a win or prob 2 vs the Big 3), and then 1 or 2 in the BET to get on the bubble. It's a big task when you consider 3 away games vs. the Top 3. Do you think they can do that? That would be an amazing run if they did and they would probably deserve to be in the mix at that point. I guess we'll see.

[TheHall]

Hall, it seems no comment is going to satisfy you. Look at the original post. I had SHU in as a potential team; and did the same above. As in: "You're saying there's a chance?" (cue Jim Carey in Dumb & Dumber) Yes, there is always a chance, and with recent play SHU now has a slight pulse, when entering into conference play it was on death's door. A SHU fan looking into the future is going to see nothing but compelling wins from here on out. Every fan of every school on this board stated that their team was going to do this and do that when looking into their crystal balls. There was an awful LOT of optimism that went unfulfilled. So as much as I admire your enthusiasm we can only look at snapshots and make value judgements based on today.

In terms of good wins I am talking about wins vs. current tourney teams. That is how SHU or any school will be judged come tourney time. We can't say that Gtwn and PC are on the bubble and then claim that those two wins are quality wins YET. 2 weeks ago the SHU loss looked bad for PC, but you guys have since played much better and your RPI is more respectable (I was actually giving SHU credit there, but you felt I was giving the credit to PC for some reason). But here's the issue that I pointed it out in a previous comment. SHU needs to beat CU, VU or XU. Those are the 3 solid BE tourney teams left on your schedule. Sweeping Butler, SJU, DePaul, and even PC & Gtwn, might not mean a thing come March because those team might not be tourney teams. And if they are "tourney teams" that just means that SHU's job of getting in the dance will be that much harder with added competition. Add that in to losses vs. two teams with RPI's over 200 at home, and that you have already squandered two home opportunities vs. CU and VU, and you can see why, objectively, SHU is running out of runway. SHU realistically needs to win at least 9 of its last 13 games (with a win or prob 2 vs the Big 3), and then 1 or 2 in the BET to get on the bubble. It's a big task when you consider 3 away games vs. the Top 3. Do you think they can do that? That would be an amazing run if they did and they would probably deserve to be in the mix at that point. I guess we'll see.

DamnIt since when is defending your team about being satisfied. You know that this conversation isn't just b/n you & I so stop nitpicking please. The majority of this board lumped SHU in w/Depaul from the start and are still stuck in that evaluation about the quality of this team. Clearly you & I are saying similar things but we differ on what a "longshot" is, which is perfectly fine about future games. You used to accuse me for "waiting" for a savior (IW), that was never true & this convo should prove that I was never simply waiting, except for our guys to get healthy. That's the key though, I'm judging our chances based on getting players back that no one has seen play together this season. It seems people were perfectly fine saying PC would get substantially better with the addition of 2 freshman lol. But asking me or you or anyone to handicap SHU's chances is irrelevant now anyway, the games will be played.

I'm not a front-runner I didn't wait until some big win to support my team like many here seem to be doing with PC now. I didn't hear posters saying PC would beat CU before that game. I didn't hear CU fans saying they would lose to PC or GW before it happened, didn't hear VU fans saying they would beat Kansas before they did. So why should I care if people think SHU can't beat the likes of VU, CU & X, let alone the rest of the teams n the BE this season. Anyone who was part of the C7 should know that tougher challenges have been overcome, does it mean it will no, but does it mean we need the ghost of Eddie Griffith to suit up for us...not this season in this BE. Again, I agree we will see.

[TheHall]

Apparently your upset enough to keep this thread going 7 pages deep now, 5 of them arguing about Seton Hall's team/resume, so I'd say you're upset. If not you would've drop it or wash your hands of it, instead your banging your head against a wall of opinion that probably isn't going to change. How quaint, a weak sauce comment, so the majority of this board's opinion of the truth is weak?, but Seton Hall fans version of it is correct and right. That's the definition of weak right there.

What's really weak is you jumping into a legit sports conversation attempting to pycho-analyze me, where i'm from they call that piling on. But, i'll do pyscho-babble job better for you: I'm not the type of fan that is intimidated to push my point just because it's not the majority decision.

[MackNova]

There's no real point in arguing with TheHall anymore. His only argument is that Seton Hall is better than we all think they are, which can never be proven because it's not a finite goal.

I asked multiple times in this thread for TheHall to give a percentage chance of Seton Hall making the NCAA Tournament, since he seems to think it's crazy no one is giving Seton Hall much of a chance to make the Tournament. He has never answered that question, and he probably never will because deep down, he knows it's a major longshot just like every rational person on this board does.

[redmen9194]

I think the best shot of being the fourth team in is Providence. I think the standings will look different than they do today, but I think Providence is playing well and could make a nice run to place itself in a good position. Note: in 2010 - 2011, The Johnnies started their season with a record of 11-8 with horrific back to back losses to Fordham (road) and St. Bonaventure (home). They played out of their minds after that to get an NCAA bid, but it can be done.

[MackNova]

I think the best shot of being the fourth team in is Providence. I think the standings will look different than they do today, but I think Providence is playing well and could make a nice run to place itself in a good position. Note: in 2010 - 2011, The Johnnies started their season with a record of 11-8 with horrific back to back losses to Fordham (road) and St. Bonaventure (home). They played out of their minds after that to get an NCAA bid, but it can be done.

That was the old Big East.

That Johnnies team got top 50 wins... (ranked by RPI by realtimerpi)
- at 21 West Virginia
- vs 13 Georgetown
- vs 9 Notre Dame
- vs 14 Connecticut
- at 36 Cincinnati
- vs 10 Pittsbugh
- vs 38 Villanova

There just aren't those wins in this new league. You have Villanova, Creighton and Xavier. In the past, you would get tons of opportunities against tournament-quality teams. Outside of the top 3, no one has stepped up to that plate. Providence and Georgetown and probably Butler had the best non-conference efforts, but all 3 have been inconsistent in conference.

Those Villanova games are going to be huge for these teams because it's likely Nova will be top 5 or 10, and at worst top 25. Creighton is the only other team that is on pace to check that "top 25" box at the end of the year.

That St. John's finished the season with 10 losses, 3 outside the top 100 (at 253 Fordham, vs 122 St. Bonnie's, and at 108 Seton Hall). Seton Hall would have a worse loss on its resume and fewer elite wins unless it won its last 4 games against X, Nova and Creighton.

[ChelseaFriar]

Katz/Greenberg had Ed Cooley on today and then they discuss the Big East NCAA tournament look. They both think it's Villanova, Creighton and Xavier with the possibility of a fourth team if a different team wins the Big East Tourney (they both think G'Town is the team outside of the Top 3 most likely to win the BET). Link below. Cooley is on at the 26 minute mark and right after Cooley they discuss the Big East.


http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=10323617