Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[GoldenBat]

Just as an idea, not saying that it's feasible or desired. But what about thinking outside of the box; think outside the country really. What about adding the best team from Canada: Carleton. They're the best team North and they can clearly compete with NCAA teams. In fact, they beat Wisconsin and competed very well against Syracuse (lost in overtime) this summer. It would open up a huge market and would probably be the best addition in terms of team quality we could add. There are some serious players that are coming out of Canada these days and we could capitalize on having Carleton in our conference.

Found this article that may be worth reading on the idea: http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/08/23/car ... ire-centre

Just a thought. It may not be feasible at all, but I don't think it's that wild of an idea.

They are not under the NCAA structure. We could no more add them than we could the Miami Heat (or insert NAIA school here). NCAA has no authority in Canada.

Could an NAIA team really not become part of the NCAA? Isn't it just an agreement between the schools themselves and not any legal structure of the country?

Edit: Seems possible. Looks like Simon Frasier has a good opportunity to do it: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=3136704

[Bill Marsh]

Cincinnati's new AD: We want out of American "It [Cincinnati U] has to figure out something to do with its basketball facility, which has thousands of empty seats even though the Bearcats have one of the nation's best teams. They have yet to sell out the 13,176-seat arena for a game — they've attracted 10,000 fans only three times this season.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-02-07/cincinnati-athletic-director-mike-bohn-colorado-pac-12-american-athletic-conference

Anonymous Eagle @AnonymousEagle "Meanwhile, Xavier’s averaging 9,792 in the 10,250 Cintas Center in the same city. Again, we won realignment."

Figuring out how to sell seats is one problem, but in terms of competition, they're right there with Xavier in the 9-10 thousand range for attendance.

Cincinnati is a leading candidate to join the Big XII if/when that conference decides to expand. I imagine that they'll have no trouble filling up those empty seats if they're bringing in Kansas, West Virginia, Texas, Oklahoma State, etc for national games. That will only squeeze Xavier even harder. Expanding with Dayton now and generating more local interest in the Big East while Cincy is struggling and before they get a shot in the arm would be in Xavier's best interests.

[marquette]

Just as an idea, not saying that it's feasible or desired. But what about thinking outside of the box; think outside the country really. What about adding the best team from Canada: Carleton. They're the best team North and they can clearly compete with NCAA teams. In fact, they beat Wisconsin and competed very well against Syracuse (lost in overtime) this summer. It would open up a huge market and would probably be the best addition in terms of team quality we could add. There are some serious players that are coming out of Canada these days and we could capitalize on having Carleton in our conference.

Found this article that may be worth reading on the idea: http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/08/23/car ... ire-centre

Just a thought. It may not be feasible at all, but I don't think it's that wild of an idea.

They are not under the NCAA structure. We could no more add them than we could the Miami Heat (or insert NAIA school here). NCAA has no authority in Canada.

Could an NAIA team really not become part of the NCAA? Isn't it just an agreement between the schools themselves and not any legal structure of the country?

Edit: Seems possible. Looks like Simon Frasier has a good opportunity to do it: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=3136704

NAIA can become NCAA, but they can't play with us while still in the NAIA. I don't know the rules in Canada, but my assumption is that the laws governing athletics in college are different up there. Also, do they use US or international basketball rules up there? What would be their motivation to go from the big dog in Canada to just another school playing in the US?

[GoldenBat]

NAIA can become NCAA, but they can't play with us while still in the NAIA. I don't know the rules in Canada, but my assumption is that the laws governing athletics in college are different up there. Also, do they use US or international basketball rules up there? What would be their motivation to go from the big dog in Canada to just another school playing in the US?

Certainly there would be hurdles. But I actually think that this is something that is going to happen in the future no matter what. No matter what league we're talking about, Canadian and American sports team are beginning to integrate into the same leagues. The article I posted in my last comment shows that Canadian schools are showing interest in joining the NCAA--some division I, some division II. Why not be proactive and snap up the best while we can?

This is just an idea that I think is worth considering. Carleton is clearly capable of being competitive with the best we have to offer. Personally, I think they are a better team than any of the teams we are typically discussing in this thread for expansion. Why not be forward thinking enough to overcome the hurdles that it would take to get them to join the BE? Clearly, there are people out there thinking about this and schools working on making it happen.

[marquette]

NAIA can become NCAA, but they can't play with us while still in the NAIA. I don't know the rules in Canada, but my assumption is that the laws governing athletics in college are different up there. Also, do they use US or international basketball rules up there? What would be their motivation to go from the big dog in Canada to just another school playing in the US?

Certainly there would be hurdles. But I actually think that this is something that is going to happen in the future no matter what. No matter what league we're talking about, Canadian and American sports team are beginning to integrate into the same leagues. The article I posted in my last comment shows that Canadian schools are showing interest in joining the NCAA--some division I, some division II. Why not be proactive and snap up the best while we can?

This is just an idea that I think is worth considering. Carleton is clearly capable of being competitive with the best we have to offer. Personally, I think they are a better team than any of the teams we are typically discussing in this thread for expansion. Why not be forward thinking enough to overcome the hurdles that it would take to get them to join the BE? Clearly, there are people out there thinking about this and schools working on making it happen.

That article sounds like the NCAA is rapidly losing division II schools and wants to replace them. One of the major issues the NCAA has been trying to figure out a way to address is keeping DII schools from moving to DI. The football schools are all up in arms over the issue.That article is also from 2007 and there have been changes in Canadian university athletics since then. The article states that Canadian institutions are not allowed to give athletic scholarships. However, a perusal of their current rules shows that the CIS now allows athletic scholarships ( http://english.cis-sic.ca/information/s ... holarships ). It looks like only one school has made the jump, and they currently compete in DII. It is an interesting idea, I just don't see it working out.

[Bill Marsh]

NAIA can become NCAA, but they can't play with us while still in the NAIA. I don't know the rules in Canada, but my assumption is that the laws governing athletics in college are different up there. Also, do they use US or international basketball rules up there? What would be their motivation to go from the big dog in Canada to just another school playing in the US?

Certainly there would be hurdles. But I actually think that this is something that is going to happen in the future no matter what. No matter what league we're talking about, Canadian and American sports team are beginning to integrate into the same leagues. The article I posted in my last comment shows that Canadian schools are showing interest in joining the NCAA--some division I, some division II. Why not be proactive and snap up the best while we can?

This is just an idea that I think is worth considering. Carleton is clearly capable of being competitive with the best we have to offer. Personally, I think they are a better team than any of the teams we are typically discussing in this thread for expansion. Why not be forward thinking enough to overcome the hurdles that it would take to get them to join the BE? Clearly, there are people out there thinking about this and schools working on making it happen.

Carleton plays its games in an on campus facility with a capacity of 1350. That facility is new with in the past 10 years, replacing an older facility with 600 seats and a standing room capacity of 800. They averaged about 400. There is clearly a lot of excitement around Carleton basketball and they are a program in transition. They have played some games in a larger facility in Ottawa where they recently set an attendance record of 10,000.

It's an interesting idea but I'm not sure that they're quite ready for the move yet.

[GoldenBat]

NAIA can become NCAA, but they can't play with us while still in the NAIA. I don't know the rules in Canada, but my assumption is that the laws governing athletics in college are different up there. Also, do they use US or international basketball rules up there? What would be their motivation to go from the big dog in Canada to just another school playing in the US?

Certainly there would be hurdles. But I actually think that this is something that is going to happen in the future no matter what. No matter what league we're talking about, Canadian and American sports team are beginning to integrate into the same leagues. The article I posted in my last comment shows that Canadian schools are showing interest in joining the NCAA--some division I, some division II. Why not be proactive and snap up the best while we can?

This is just an idea that I think is worth considering. Carleton is clearly capable of being competitive with the best we have to offer. Personally, I think they are a better team than any of the teams we are typically discussing in this thread for expansion. Why not be forward thinking enough to overcome the hurdles that it would take to get them to join the BE? Clearly, there are people out there thinking about this and schools working on making it happen.

Carleton plays its games in an on campus facility with a capacity of 1350. That facility is new with in the past 10 years, replacing an older facility with 600 seats and a standing room capacity of 800. They averaged about 400. There is clearly a lot of excitement around Carleton basketball and they are a program in transition. They have played some games in a larger facility in Ottawa where they recently set an attendance record of 10,000.

It's an interesting idea but I'm not sure that they're quite ready for the move yet.

I think you and marquette make good points. They may not be ready yet. But I can definitely see Carleton being a viable option, if not now, in the future. Hey, it would be another east coast school!

[GumbyDamnit!]

Dayton makes absolutely no sense to me. It would be the same as having St Joes or GW or URI join. We already have a team that covers the (Southern) OH market in X. Fox is going to want us to bring in new markets. So as "ready for prime time" that Dayton thinks they are (although their resume is seriously lacking much March success) it makes absolutely no sense to bring them on geographically. SLU makes the most sense along with someone like a UMASS over a Dayton.

You can't just write off a school that draws 12,000 to its games as making no sense.

Very underrated in many of these discussions is the importance of rivalries to generate interest. Having 2 schools in close proximity could work to intensify interest in the region and thereby overcome the advantage that the Cincy Bearcats have in size and identity with the area. I don't see the proximity of UNC, Duke, and NC State being a problem for the ACC. Nor do I see the UCLA/USC and Cal/Stanford pairings being a problem in the PAC-12. The SEC seems to do just fine with Alabama/Auburn. Same ith KU/K State in the Vig XII.

The other factor being ignored is that neither Xavier nor Dayton are local commuter schools. They draw their students regionally, so they don't simply share the Cincinnati/Dayton market. If they did, then they'd immediately be in Trouble because U Cincinnati is bigger than either of them and has a more prominent local presence. A good Dayton program would enhance TV ratings, they wouldn't simply be redundant of what Xavier already brings.

There's no denying that there are issues with a Dayton candidacy, but issues with market overlap are way overblown and are really a non-issue.

Bill, are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between Dayton/XU and UNC, Duke and NC St, and Auburn/Ala? Did I read that correctly? So you think America will tune in to see XU-Dayton?

And yes I can just dismiss a school like Dayton because #1 they just aren't that great of a program, and #2 they are close to XU. You want them in what we hope to be the premeir hoops conference in America because of their lone rivalry with XU? Did I get that right? Those 2 can continue to play for years to come and every TV in SW OH that is not a UC house will be tuned to it. Meanwhile Syr and Duke are a thousand miles from each other and in one game they built what might become a great national hoops rivalry. It's about winning programs. If programs win, fans want to see their games and TV's tune in. If CU and Nova meet up in the BET final and both are Top 10 programs, don't ya think that will draw viewers from all over? No rivalry there before this year, but 2 very good programs.

Dayton is not a program that will improve this league no matter how rabid their 12k fans are. If they were they would have proven it by now, and we would have invited them instead of XU. and to boot, if one of the other 9 schools were to tell Villanova that they'd rather not share a market with another school, that would be all I had to hear. Done, no Dayton if that's what you want XU. For years Nova had to endure talk of Temple joining the BE. We didn't like it and I can see why XU wouldn't like it.

[redmen9194]

Agree with Gumby, we should not double up markets as there is simply no need to do so. If Xavier wants to be the Big East school from Ohio, that should be their call. I thought it was ridiculous that the old Big East was bringing in Temple for hoops. I don't think Dayton adds enough to make them 11 or 12. I like the 10 we are at. If we had to make a move, get SLU and stick with 11. But I like the ten we have. No need to mix it up.

[stever20]

Agree with Gumby, we should not double up markets as there is simply no need to do so. If Xavier wants to be the Big East school from Ohio, that should be their call. I thought it was ridiculous that the old Big East was bringing in Temple for hoops. I don't think Dayton adds enough to make them 11 or 12. I like the 10 we are at. If we had to make a move, get SLU and stick with 11. But I like the ten we have. No need to mix it up.

11 doesn't really work well because with the odd number you have byes every time.