Big East Conference Expansion Ideas and Discussion

[stever20]

Dayton makes absolutely no sense to me. It would be the same as having St Joes or GW or URI join. We already have a team that covers the (Southern) OH market in X. Fox is going to want us to bring in new markets. So as "ready for prime time" that Dayton thinks they are (although their resume is seriously lacking much March success) it makes absolutely no sense to bring them on geographically. SLU makes the most sense along with someone like a UMASS over a Dayton.

You can't just write off a school that draws 12,000 to its games as making no sense.

Very underrated in many of these discussions is the importance of rivalries to generate interest. Having 2 schools in close proximity could work to intensify interest in the region and thereby overcome the advantage that the Cincy Bearcats have in size and identity with the area. I don't see the proximity of UNC, Duke, and NC State being a problem for the ACC. Nor do I see the UCLA/USC and Cal/Stanford pairings being a problem in the PAC-12. The SEC seems to do just fine with Alabama/Auburn. Same ith KU/K State in the Vig XII.

The other factor being ignored is that neither Xavier nor Dayton are local commuter schools. They draw their students regionally, so they don't simply share the Cincinnati/Dayton market. If they did, then they'd immediately be in Trouble because U Cincinnati is bigger than either of them and has a more prominent local presence. A good Dayton program would enhance TV ratings, they wouldn't simply be redundant of what Xavier already brings.

There's no denying that there are issues with a Dayton candidacy, but issues with market overlap are way overblown and are really a non-issue.

There is a big difference though in schools that are already in the league and a league looking to expand. If conferences were being done today, do you really think North Carolina would have 4 schools in the ACC? I don't.

Also- the issues with market overlap may be a non-issue to you, but I guarantee you they are a big issue to Xavier.

[Bill Marsh]

The main issues I heard about market overlap, and this was from UR's president, was that XU did not want them in the league. They wanted the SW Ohio market to themselves, as they felt it was advantageous to the University as a whole. Better for basketball, branding and admissions if they were the only school in the better conference. But who really knows what is true.

Someone better tell XU that they don't have the SW Ohio market to themselves. U Cincinnati is already there and Ohio State has a big presence, not to mention Kentucky. Dayton would help XU, not hurt them.

[Bill Marsh]

Agree with that generally- St. Louis is a perfect fit marketwise/institution.

UMass has a more attractive market compared to VCU but less bball success and football aspirations. My vote is still BU - much less bball history, but perfect institutional fit, would become the second highest ranked academic institution after Gtown (go hoyas), private, no football, reinforces our presence in New England which we really need. This year, would be better than Depaul, Setonhall, and Butler by RPI - also significantly better than BC with a decent new stadium. Attendance is the big issue with them.

I agree that any expansion plans need to include expanding the league's presence in the East. I like the Boston market as a partner for Providence, which is currently on an island, but BU is not the answer. They are a jockey school and Boston is a hockey town on the collegiate level. BU averaged only 750 in home attendance last year for basketball. Yes, that's not a misprint or a typo. You can't manufacture net rest where none exists.

Frankly, it's too bad that Siena didn't maintain the momentum they had about 5 years ago. Even with a series of disappointing seasons, they averaged 6300 in home attendance last year. They are the only game in town in the state capitol where they get a lot of support. They have far and away the best attendance of any private school in the East north of the amazon-Dixon line. And no one else is even remotely close.

[bmorex]

The main issues I heard about market overlap, and this was from UR's president, was that XU did not want them in the league. They wanted the SW Ohio market to themselves, as they felt it was advantageous to the University as a whole. Better for basketball, branding and admissions if they were the only school in the better conference. But who really knows what is true.

Someone better tell XU that they don't have the SW Ohio market to themselves. U Cincinnati is already there and Ohio State has a big presence, not to mention Kentucky. Dayton would help XU, not hurt them.

I don't think anyone is saying that Xavier has the SW Ohio market to themselves. However, there is a clear competitive advantage of being the only Big East school in the area. Adding Dayton would limit that.

Why do you say Dayton would help us?

[Bill Marsh]

The main issues I heard about market overlap, and this was from UR's president, was that XU did not want them in the league. They wanted the SW Ohio market to themselves, as they felt it was advantageous to the University as a whole. Better for basketball, branding and admissions if they were the only school in the better conference. But who really knows what is true.

Someone better tell XU that they don't have the SW Ohio market to themselves. U Cincinnati is already there and Ohio State has a big presence, not to mention Kentucky. Dayton would help XU, not hurt them.

I don't think anyone is saying that Xavier has the SW Ohio market to themselves. However, there is a clear competitive advantage of being the only Big East school in the area. Adding Dayton would limit that.

Why do you say Dayton would help us?

I was simply responding to the quote in the previous post: "They (XU)wanted the SW Ohio market to themselves."

I say that Dayton would help Xavier in several ways which I explained in a previous post:

1. Close rivalries intensify interest. See North Carolina-Duke and others which I listed in a previous post. This is especially important for Xavier because if we're just going o numbers, Cincinnati, Ohio State, and Kentucky have a big advantage in greater Cincinnati.

2. Neither XU nor UD are local commuter schools they draw their student bodies regionally and their graduates live regionally, not just locally. Bringing Dayton fans and alums into the equation would boost TV ratings, which would benefit Xavier.

3. It should be viewed as a partnership, not a competition. Trying to maintain exclusivity is short sighted and ultimately self-defeating. It's not like Xavier can be successful by cornering the market on local recruits and local fans.

[Bostonspider]

The wanted the SW Ohio market to themselves, within the Big East... Not claiming the have the whole market to themselves, but within the conference they do and have no desire to share it. Similar to Georgetown versus GW, or Villanova versus St. Joe's.

[marquette]

Just as an idea, not saying that it's feasible or desired. But what about thinking outside of the box; think outside the country really. What about adding the best team from Canada: Carleton. They're the best team North and they can clearly compete with NCAA teams. In fact, they beat Wisconsin and competed very well against Syracuse (lost in overtime) this summer. It would open up a huge market and would probably be the best addition in terms of team quality we could add. There are some serious players that are coming out of Canada these days and we could capitalize on having Carleton in our conference.

Found this article that may be worth reading on the idea: http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/08/23/car ... ire-centre

Just a thought. It may not be feasible at all, but I don't think it's that wild of an idea.

They are not under the NCAA structure. We could no more add them than we could the Miami Heat (or insert NAIA school here). NCAA has no authority in Canada.

[Bill Marsh]

The wanted the SW Ohio market to themselves, within the Big East... Not claiming the have the whole market to themselves, but within the conference they do and have no desire to share it. Similar to Georgetown versus GW, or Villanova versus St. Joe's.

But GW and St. Joe's offer no real coetition to the Big East in those markets. Both have low attendance. Georgetown and Villanova really do have those markets to themselves on the collegiate level. But The Bearcats are a major player in The Cincinnati market - at least as big as Xavier if not bigger.

What good is it to have the SW Ohio market to themselves within the Big East if the Big East is a second or third or 4th class citizen in that market? The solution is to raise the profile of the conference within the region, which the addition of Dayton would clearly do.

[Bill Marsh]

Agree with that generally- St. Louis is a perfect fit marketwise/institution.

UMass has a more attractive market compared to VCU but less bball success and football aspirations. My vote is still BU - much less bball history, but perfect institutional fit, would become the second highest ranked academic institution after Gtown (go hoyas), private, no football, reinforces our presence in New England which we really need. This year, would be better than Depaul, Setonhall, and Butler by RPI - also significantly better than BC with a decent new stadium. Attendance is the big issue with them.

I agree that any expansion plans need to include expanding the league's presence in the East. I like the Boston market as a partner for Providence, which is currently on an island, but BU is not the answer. They are a jockey school and Boston is a hockey town on the collegiate level. BU averaged only 750 in home attendance last year for basketball. Yes, that's not a misprint or a typo. You can't manufacture net rest where none exists.

Frankly, it's too bad that Siena didn't maintain the momentum they had about 5 years ago. Even with a series of disappointing seasons, they averaged 6300 in home attendance last year. They are the only game in town in the state capitol where they get a lot of support. They have far and away the best attendance of any private school in the East north of the amazon-Dixon line. And no one else is even remotely close.

Here's what the Siena attendance has looked like over the past5 years:

2013 - 6300
2012 - 6500
2011 - 7600
2010 - 7900
2009 - 7500

While attendance has been declining over the past 5 years due to a series of bad teams, the potential is clearly there. Although Siena is a small school, they have a large presence in Albany. Simply contrast their attendance with SUNY Albany, which drew only 2900 last year.

[milwaukeejedi1]

Cincinnati's new AD: We want out of American "It [Cincinnati U] has to figure out something to do with its basketball facility, which has thousands of empty seats even though the Bearcats have one of the nation's best teams. They have yet to sell out the 13,176-seat arena for a game — they've attracted 10,000 fans only three times this season.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2014-02-07/cincinnati-athletic-director-mike-bohn-colorado-pac-12-american-athletic-conference

Anonymous Eagle @AnonymousEagle "Meanwhile, Xavier’s averaging 9,792 in the 10,250 Cintas Center in the same city. Again, we won realignment."