[Just for fun] Your Outside-the-Box Expansion Ideas

[Bill Marsh]

I think it's agreat idea. One of the things it has going for it is that LA has no pro football. So, once the colege football is season is over, there wouldn't be much competition for fan interest in LA at that point - as long as the tournament avoided the Rose Bowl on New Year's Day. In fact, if it were scheduled right before the Rose Bowl, it might actually become an attraction since there are so many extra people in LA at that time and some of them might buy tickets to see some good college basketball.

BTW, I assume you're talking about Loyola-Marymount? They would definitely be a project, but so was Seton Hall when the Bog East was first formed. Having a commitment from them to upgrade the program would be a "must". At least they have a huge market. Imagining a conference with teams in NY, LA, and Chicago would have to be very tempting.

On a side note, I think that too much is made of adding "new" markets. No team "delivers" it's home market. Each team has it's fan base as well as others who are fans of college basketball, but no one delivers the home market the way a pro team does. Adding another team within a market intensifies interest within that market and expands the penetration of that market. Thus, adding a St. Joe's, for example, in the Philly market would be a plus. Same thing with adding Dayton in southwest Ohio as another example.

LA doesn't have much competition for fan interest?! UCLA might be down this year, but they're a blue blood basketball program. USC is still in-town and all of the Pac-12 schools send a ton of alums to LA (similar to how Big Ten grads gravitate to Chicago). Plus, the NFL doesn't matter: LA is a *Lakers* town above all else (even when they're horrible like right now). The fact that the Clippers are actually very good on top of it means that LA is the top market for the NBA. We're not even including the 2 NHL teams in the market, which features the Kings that have won 2 of the last 3 Stanley Cup championships. If anything, LA is the most competitive winter sports market in the country.

Regardless, SLU has to be included in any Big East expansion scenario. To exclude them just doesn't make sense based on institutional fit, market size, facilities, geography and history (and I have zero personal connection with SLU). Anyone trying to exclude SLU isn't looking at the factors that truly drive conference realignment.

So, the question is who comes with SLU. The outside of the box options for me are one of either Boston University (who someone else has already mentioned) or Northeastern. Whoever shows more consistency over the next 5 years on-the-court (not necessarily excellence) would get the nod. The private school presence in the Boston market is a key component. The way the Big East should look at one of the Boston schools is the way that the Big Ten looked at Rutgers: the actual fan base and performance of the expansion candidate is secondary compared to giving the alums of the other current members a home base in that market. The value of Rutgers in the Big Ten isn't Rutgers itself - instead, the value is that Rutgers is the vehicle to consolidate all of the Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State and other Big Ten alums that live in the NYC market. The Big East should have that same type of presence in the Boston market for the alums from Providence, Georgetown, Villanova and other members. It's simply way too large of a market on the East Coast (particularly for a conference like the Big East) to leave that open to essentially just Boston College in the ACC even with the fact that it's a weak college sports fan market overall.

Frank, you're hopeless.

[jks1985]

Either get BU or Northeastern to move all their home games to the TD Garden and sign them up.

[gmoser1210]

Regardless, SLU has to be included in any Big East expansion scenario. To exclude them just doesn't make sense based on institutional fit, market size, facilities, geography and history (and I have zero personal connection with SLU).

I'll give you everything but history. Please remember that there is a part of me that would love to see SLU in the Big East. I went to law school at SLU and adopted them as my home team for three years. I cheer for them as long as they're not playing Butler. However, I firmly believe that you can be a fan of a team and a realist at the same time.

You're absolutely right that they'd be a good addition because of the institutional fit, market, facilities and geography, but I do not think they add value as far as basketball success and I don't see them as a program that would help the Big East as a brand. They have not shown an ability to have success in the NCAA tournament. Their last Sweet Sixteen was in 1957 - when there were only 16 teams in the tournament. Thanks to Rick Majerus' efforts to turn the program around, they've competed in three consecutive NCAA tournaments (their first three appearances after over a decade of not making the tournament). They were definitely headed in the right direction. Sadly, they're not showing that they will be able to sustain their success.

Since Majerus died in 2011, Jim Crews has taken the Billikens to two NCAA tournaments, winning a game each time before losing in the Round of 32. This is the same Jim Crews who got fired from Army in 2009 after accumulating a 59-140 (.296) record. Crews showed that he can win with the Majerus recruits. However, now that the Majerus recruits are graduating, Crews has not been able to sustain that success. SLU is .500 on the season and is 0-3 in the A10. As a fan, I'm concerned that SLU will see the same Jim Crews that coached at Army. If that's the case, the Big East is better off without the Billikens, and the Billikens are better off with the lower level of competition in the (admittedly still pretty competitive) A10.

[Edrick]

The reason the Big East will be ten teams, ten years from now, is that a program like SLU which isn't even close to quality enough to justify upsetting the present balance is, in fact, probably the best candidate.

There is no one and it's not likely therell become one. The amount of luck and circumstance that creates a Xavier or Butler is rare. It's just not happening, no one wants it, and even if they did there are no candidates.

[butlerguy03]

I've mentioned U. of Toronto before, but what about Army and Navy? They're never going to a F5 conference. They would bring in quite a bit of audience/money/prestige.

[NJRedman]

I've mentioned U. of Toronto before, but what about Army and Navy? They're never going to a F5 conference. They would bring in quite a bit of audience/money/prestige.

I'm sorry but who ever has ever said Army and Navy BBall is prestigious? What money are they bringing to the table? Who is this audience?

[butlerguy03]

I've mentioned U. of Toronto before, but what about Army and Navy? They're never going to a F5 conference. They would bring in quite a bit of audience/money/prestige.

I'm sorry but who ever has ever said Army and Navy BBall is prestigious? What money are they bringing to the table? Who is this audience?

True, they have more of a history in football. However, if you could get Army and Navy up to BE standards - holy crap. And....you don't think FOX wouldn't find a way to tie in the Army-Navy football game in a media deal? It truly could be one of the few ways football could help the Big East!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2012/12/08/army-versus-navy-the-most-undervalued-television-deal-in-sports/

[billyjack]

Not sure i want to kickstart this discussion again, but i wanted to touch on the idea of looking at Boston, and the options and concerns and other factors.

IN SUMMARY:
There are really no good options in Massachusetts.
I guess UMass is tops (the safe, non-exciting choice), if public and football aren't a concern.
Next i would go with Holy Cross (the project choice, offering a possible excellent upside), for reasons given below.
Then Northeastern.
Then Boston University.

OUR WEAK OPTIONS IN MASSACHUSETTS:

So, the state of Massachusetts has 7 teams playing division-1 hoops.

Harvard is in the Ivy, so they're removed from consideration.
Boston College is ACC, so they're removed from consideration.
Lowell is too new to Div-1, too small, and unrealistic, and public, so we can remove them from our list.

That leaves 4 schools that are even possible:
Boston University, Northeastern, Holy Cross and UMass.

UMASS:
UMass has football and is public. They're a 2 hour drive from Boston, so a casual UMass fan in Boston can't easily get out to a game in Amherst. The state itself tends to neglect the school. To Bostonians, anything beyond I-495 may as well be in Maine or New Hampshire, or God forbid Rhode Island.

During the Calipari years, they got a bit of traction in the state, but nowhere near what they deserved. Their games aren't shown in Boston, and they're not on NESN. They've had 8 home games this year, and have averaged 4,493 per game in the 9,500-seat on campus Mullins Center. However, opening night they drew 8,100 vs Siena, whose fans must've made the 1.5 hour drive from Albany. Removing this game puts UMass's average draw at 3,965 fans per game.

This is the best per-game average of the remaing 4 Massachusetts schools. Note that UMass's first two A-10 home games drew 4,506 vs St Bona on a Saturday, and 3,205 vs Davidson on a Wednesday night.

NORTHEASTERN:
Northeastern for years was a commuter school that was known for its excellent engineering program. In recent years NU has gotten away from the commuter label. It's just south of the Back Bay, near a bunch of subway-trolley stops. Nearby are the Boston Symphony, Boston Museum of Fine Arts, Berklee College of Music, and other cool places in the arts, as well as being a 10 minute walk to Fenway Park.

Northeastern plays both hoops and hockey at historic Matthews Arena, the 100+ year old original home of the NHL's Bruins, and the site of many events including a Teddy Roosevelt speech way back in the day.

Anyway, Northeastern has had only 4 home games so far this season, and i could find attendance for three of them... they drew 1,125 vs Fairfield on a Saturday... 573 vs Unc-Wilmington on a Monday... and 1,493 vs Hofstra on a Wednesday... this gives them an average of 1,063 per game.

Northeastern is a respected school, and it's hockey participates in the Beanpot, and they're in Hockey East. Their hoops play in the Colonial, the only CAA team in New England. Perception-wise, they get overshadowed, typically, by the many other excellent schools throughout Metro Boston.

The student body, i think, tends to be local, or at least mostly made up of New Englanders, so that's good. And again, great engineering school, but they'd be an odd choice to join us... they'd be a head-scratching project team... sort of like inviting Drexel or Towson.

BOSTON UNIVERSITY:
On paper, BU seems logical. Big student body, in the Back Bay on the subway line, loaded with money, excellent academic reputation, an outstanding school. Closer to the city than BC. Beautiful on-campus arena on Commonwealth Ave and the trolley line. Seconds from Fenway Park.

Seems on paper like a good project team. For hockey (Hockey East), they get great crowds, including regular townspeople (not just alums and students) who love hockey... not Bruins-fan passion, but knowledgeable fans.

Attendance numbers for hoops, however, are beyond atrocious. Take a look... they've had 7 Div-1 home games so far this season, and are averaging 421 per game. Four-hundred and twenty-one. This includes 407 on a Sunday vs Lowell... 723 on a Wed vs Binghamton... 361 on a Saturday vs Saint Peter's... 394 on a Sunday vs Quinnipiac... 340 on a Saturday vs Lehigh... and 738 on a Saturday vs Lafayette... amazingly poor numbers.

Now, i can't really wrap my head around this... just wow... part of this might be that much of the student body, from what I've understood over the years, is from outside of New England... so maybe alums don't stick around after graduation... also, many are grad students and have less interest in sports... or maybe parents aren't near campus to watch a game... or maybe townspeople don't know many family members who are alums who could help gain interest in hoops (BU hockey, in contrast to hoops, recruits many local high schools stars, who I'm guessing draw interest from locals).

Anyway, it would be a major project to build up interest in BU... not saying impossible, but this would require a complete overhaul of the hoops program. A positive is that they recently moved to the Patriot League, and should find some success which could gain some interest. Also, note that BU voluntarily dumped football.

HOLY CROSS:
Holy Cross, because they were excellent in the years that i first followed college hoops in the late-70's, is my sentimental favorite if we are going to dip into Massachusetts (they were ranked #9 at one point).

The Crusaders are Jesuit, and have a great history with some legendary players... living legends who were Celtics greats in Bob Cousy and Tom Heinsohn (Heinsohn still calls Celtics games, with Mike Gorman), plus Friars legendary ciach Joe Mullaney who built the PC hoops program. National title with Mullaney and Cousy in 47... NIT title with Heinsohn in 54.

So, ok... The Cross is in Worcester, which i think is 2nd largest in the state, and is just outside of I-495 on the Mass Pike. It's close enough to Boston to get some attention, at maybe 30 to 45 minutes from Boston suburbs. It's also just as close to Providence, Springfield and Hartford... all within an hour. It's on the Boston side of the I-84 split, the less traffic-jammed side... the point is, it's in a convenient location to basically anywhere.

Holy Cross plays at the on-campus Hart Center, which seats around 3,600. However, Worcester also has a 13,000 seat arena downtown (DC Arena or something?... used to be called the Centrum). Anyway, in the 70's, the Cross had a huge following throughout central Mass, with many local alums and local townspeople fans.

Small sample size, but people i know from the area all have great respect for the school, and those my age and older easily recognize the names Chris Potter, Mike Vicens and Ronnie Perry (in comparison, if i mentioned Martin Clark or John Bagley or Michael Adams to a BC fan, or Mike Ruth, or any person not named "Flutie" to a typical BC fan, the BC fan wouldn't have a clue about any of them).

As the famous story goes, Holy Cross was offered a spot in the original Big East, but their president at the time turned it down, and instead stressed academics, in which it also has an outstanding reputation. The de-stressing of hoops has been demoralizing to their fanbase and alums. They're not fans of BC (they're long ago rival), but tend to respect the Friars (another plus!)

Ok, so attendance-wise... it gets dicey here... they've had 7 home games, averaging 1,565 fans... getting 1,805 on a Wed vs Brown... 1,655 on a Sunday vs Div-3 Nichols College from Dudley, Mass... 1,127 on a Tues vs Hartford... 1,674 on a Friday vs N.J.I.T... 1,792 on a Wed vs Boston University... 1,686 on a Saturday vs Bucknell... and 1,221 on a Wed vs Army (bad weather the other night)... so, remove the Tues-Wed games vs Hartford and Army, and Holy Cross is pulling in around 1,700 fans per game.

I think the Cross has the best chance of building their fanbase (or rebuilding it)... with the best catchment area when everything is considered. The 13k downtown arena is a key too. The convenience from Providence is nice for Friars fans. They also have intangibles of a great (long ago) history, and some famous alums, and an old rivalry with Georgetown.

A NOTE ON BOSTON COLLEGE ATTENDANCE:
These are amazingly poor numbers for BC hoops... not counting the PC game, since more than half the crowd at Conte Forum were Friar fans... Boston College through 8 home games is averaging 2,745... under 3k fans per game... highlighted by an insane 2,213 vs Pitt a week ago Tuesday... but also 1,748 vs Marist... 1,876 vs Binghamton... 2,133 vs Maine... their average was helped tremendously by 3,711 vs Lowell (Lowell fans must've come down)... and 3,529 vs Harvard (again, some Crimson fans must've gone to the game)... Holy Cross averages just 1k fewer fans per game than BC... amazing.

A NOTE ON SIENA ATTENDANCE:
I looked at Siena too... the're hoops nuts... Siena in Albany averages 6,585 a game, through 7 games this season... unfortunately, they have no ties to any of us historically... little history...

SUMMARY OF ATTENDANCE:
Siena 6,585.
UMass 4,493.
Boston College 2,745.
Holy Cross 1,566.
Northeastern 1,064.
Lowell 629.
Boston University 400.

If we want to consider getting into Massachusetts, these are our options... very weak.

[butlerguy03]

I've been doing some thinking about this, and honestly I think if we ever expand, it's not Saint Louis and who? It's probably Siena and who? If you compare the two, its obvious which one has more upside. Yes, St. Louis is a much larger market than Albany, but Siena can win Albany, Saint Louis won't dominate STL ever. Attendance at Siena home games is already double its school size.

Siena fits the profile, footprint, and already has a fan base built in. Why don't they get much more thought around here?

[GumbyDamnit!]

My goodness, some on here must simply have a completely different set of standards about expansion than I do I guess. Siena? Holy Cross? Northeastern? Boston U?

There should be NO reason to bring on a program to this conference that needs to be "brought along," and taugght how to be successful. We are the BIG-Freaking-EAST!!!!

Expand only if it makes you better: Gonzaga, UConn; maybe VCU, UNLV, BYU. SLU, Dayton, Cincy, Temple, Memphis = 2nd tier, no thanks. All the rest = yawn.

Hold onto the round robin and continue to tout that we are the premier hoops-only league. It is working...let it grow. Then take programs that make us better. Period. Maybe wait and see if there are more FB shakeups. Who's to say they don't go to (4) 16 team leagues and our prospective pool of programs becomes deeper and wider.