UMass football & MAC parting ways after 2015 season

[HoosierPal]

So I am STILL not sure if you consider 75% good or bad.

You showed me two pieces of fruit, both grow from trees, both have high nutritional value, and both are good for you.

All things considered, the Big East has to look at it's first Tournament as a success considering the distance the schools' main fanbases have to travel (UConn and Syracuse really helped fill up the building in the OBE years), the overall down year for the conference, and frankly, the fact that we do have basically a little CYO league of private schools. To fault the Big East Tournament for not being like the Big Ten Tournament is like faulting an apple for not being a good orange. They're just different creatures.

But ultimately, to get back on topic, the Big Ten Tournament in Indy has just as much of an impact on the Big East Tournament as UMass getting their affiliate membership in the MAC getting revoked does.

Thank you. Your answer is yes to the question asked.

And I do like fruit.

[Bill Marsh]

So I am STILL not sure if you consider 75% good or bad.

You showed me two pieces of fruit, both grow from trees, both have high nutritional value, and both are good for you.

All things considered, the Big East has to look at it's first Tournament as a success considering the distance the schools' main fanbases have to travel (UConn and Syracuse really helped fill up the building in the OBE years), the overall down year for the conference, and frankly, the fact that we do have basically a little CYO league of private schools. To fault the Big East Tournament for not being like the Big Ten Tournament is like faulting an apple for not being a good orange. They're just different creatures.

Do you really think that any objective observer evaluates the tournament that way? I don't.

It's not like Fox gave the Big East all that money because they were just dying to broadcast a CYO league. Nor is it a fact that this was a down year for the Big East - not when they were ranked 4th among all basketball conferences and had 2 teams in the top ten throughout the regular season. I can imagine a lot worse seasons than this one.

And what's the relevance of UConn and Syracuse? It's not like they're local schools. All 5 eastern schools from the current Big east are closer to MSG than Syracuse. What makes the tournament a success is how many tickets are sold. No one gives the big East a mulligan because half their teams are from put of the region. I would suggest that very fact is a reason for the Big East to give serious consideration to east coast schools like VCU and UMass when they make their expansion plans.

[NJRedman]

This certainly points to another conference shift coming soon. My guess is that UMass will have to align with another conference for it's football. The two obvious ones are the 1st AAC and 2nd CUSA. This likely puts other dominos into motion, particularly in the AAC. Will the AAC then attempt to get SLU/VCU/Dayton/Wichita State as it potentially looses UConn and Cincy/Memphis? Who wants to pick up UConn, Cincy and Memphis? The Big 12 might be interested in Memphis or Cincy, but more likely BYU. And if SLU/VCU/Dayton/Wichita State are gone, where does that leave the Big East?

The AAC can invite any BBall school they want, but when their full members are making less than the Big East those BBall members will make even less and will still jump to the Big East in a New York minute.

[NJRedman]

I didn't think this way before, but I really think another shakeup is coming soon in light of this story and the ACC vs. Maryland situation. We have to be the predator, not the prey this round. We secured some very good programs but we need more. Let's snatch up Wichita State while they are red hot to capitalize on the recruiting and branding. Let's take Dayton, VCU, and STL. That gives us 14 teams.

Villanova/ DePaul
SJ / Marquette
SHU / PC
Creighton/ Wichita St.
G'Town / Dayton
Xavier / VCU
Butler / St. Louis

That is a pretty damn formidable conference. At worst it's rock solid. At best it's a 6-8 bid league. We have better odds that one of WSU, STL, Dayton, or VCU will not drop off. This brings more fans to MSG for the tourney, a larger following, a larger audience for FS1, and definitely raises the profile IMO. I'm very worried that Val is way too submissive. She has not been vocal and she has not been aggressive so far. The AAC can easily snatch the rest of the talent out there and then we are stuck. This brings some great rivalries Dayton v. Xavier, Wichita St. v. Creighton, etc.

Breathe into a paper bag, chicken little. The sky is not falling.

1.) There's already an expansion thread where the four programs you mentioned have already been discussed at length, and
2.) After 130+ pages, the consensus I got was that there may be one or two good reasons to add all of them, but there's no compelling reason to add any of them.
3.) Please detail how Val Ackerman has "not been aggressive." Why? Because she hasn't expanded the league? It's still the first year, for God's sake. You want to expand for the sake of expanding.
4.) The AAC is not going to add Wichita, VCU, Dayton, and SLU. I mean, a hybrid football/basketball model worked out so well for them last time, right? Get real. None of those programs are going anywhere.
5.) Just for review:
Dayton: Won as many NCAA Tournament games last week as they had in the previous 30 years. Doesn't bring anything to the table Xavier doesn't already give you. Dayton aspires to be a poor man's Xavier.
Wichita State: Has only been past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 33 years. Won as many games in the last 2 NCAA Tournaments as they had in the previous 47 years. Too small media market. Poor institutional fit.
Saint Louis: Institutional fit, but athletic Johnny-come-latelys. Some success compared to the poor state the program was in before, but the last time they got to the Regional Semifinals of the Tournament, Eisenhower was President.
VCU: Other than 2011 Final Four Run, VCU has never made it to the Sweet 16 in program history. NCAA Record without someone named Shaka Smart as the coach is 5-9.

I love how people point this stuff out like it means anything. Lets look at some of our current members stack up to your criteria.

SJU has been to 1 NCAA tournament in the last 10 years and hasn't won an NCAA tournament game since 2000.
Providence hasn't won a NCAA tournament game since 1997.
Seton Hall hasn't won a NCAA game since 2004 and has won just 2 since 2000.
Creighton hasn't won 2 NCAA games since 1974.
DePaul last won a NCAA game in 2004 and the last one before that was 1989.

So before we start talking about who has the all mighty credentials to get into the Big East we ought to be honest about what we're asking from teams. Dayton is having a better run than any of these teams in the last 15 years and in some cases even longer. VCU has had a better run than more than half the league has ever had, same goes for Wichita St.

[NJRedman]

Now in regards to Umass and the MAC. I think this is how it goes down.

Marshall and James Madison join the MAC as full members and UMass takes Marshall's spot in CUSA. Yes, I know Marshall left the MAC to join CUSA but this is not the same CUSA that Marshall left for. It's closer to the Sun Belt than CUSA.

I think the AAC is happy where it is and knows it can pluck whomever it wants from those eastern conferences below it.

[Bill Marsh]

I didn't think this way before, but I really think another shakeup is coming soon in light of this story and the ACC vs. Maryland situation. We have to be the predator, not the prey this round. We secured some very good programs but we need more. Let's snatch up Wichita State while they are red hot to capitalize on the recruiting and branding. Let's take Dayton, VCU, and STL. That gives us 14 teams.

Villanova/ DePaul
SJ / Marquette
SHU / PC
Creighton/ Wichita St.
G'Town / Dayton
Xavier / VCU
Butler / St. Louis

That is a pretty damn formidable conference. At worst it's rock solid. At best it's a 6-8 bid league. We have better odds that one of WSU, STL, Dayton, or VCU will not drop off. This brings more fans to MSG for the tourney, a larger following, a larger audience for FS1, and definitely raises the profile IMO. I'm very worried that Val is way too submissive. She has not been vocal and she has not been aggressive so far. The AAC can easily snatch the rest of the talent out there and then we are stuck. This brings some great rivalries Dayton v. Xavier, Wichita St. v. Creighton, etc.

Breathe into a paper bag, chicken little. The sky is not falling.

1.) There's already an expansion thread where the four programs you mentioned have already been discussed at length, and
2.) After 130+ pages, the consensus I got was that there may be one or two good reasons to add all of them, but there's no compelling reason to add any of them.
3.) Please detail how Val Ackerman has "not been aggressive." Why? Because she hasn't expanded the league? It's still the first year, for God's sake. You want to expand for the sake of expanding.
4.) The AAC is not going to add Wichita, VCU, Dayton, and SLU. I mean, a hybrid football/basketball model worked out so well for them last time, right? Get real. None of those programs are going anywhere.
5.) Just for review:
Dayton: Won as many NCAA Tournament games last week as they had in the previous 30 years. Doesn't bring anything to the table Xavier doesn't already give you. Dayton aspires to be a poor man's Xavier.
Wichita State: Has only been past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 33 years. Won as many games in the last 2 NCAA Tournaments as they had in the previous 47 years. Too small media market. Poor institutional fit.
Saint Louis: Institutional fit, but athletic Johnny-come-latelys. Some success compared to the poor state the program was in before, but the last time they got to the Regional Semifinals of the Tournament, Eisenhower was President.
VCU: Other than 2011 Final Four Run, VCU has never made it to the Sweet 16 in program history. NCAA Record without someone named Shaka Smart as the coach is 5-9.

I love how people point this stuff out like it means anything. Lets look at some of our current members stack up to your criteria.

SJU has been to 1 NCAA tournament in the last 10 years and hasn't won an NCAA tournament game since 2000.
Providence hasn't won a NCAA tournament game since 1997.
Seton Hall hasn't won a NCAA game since 2004 and has won just 2 since 2000.
Creighton hasn't won 2 NCAA games since 1974.
DePaul last won a NCAA game in 2004 and the last one before that was 1989.

So before we start talking about who has the all mighty credentials to get into the Big East we ought to be honest about what we're asking from teams. Dayton is having a better run than any of these teams in the last 15 years and in some cases even longer. VCU has had a better run than more than half the league has ever had, same goes for Wichita St.

I'm a fan of VCU to the Big East, but VCU had a better run than more than half the league has ever had? What half is that? I assume you're talking about VCU's run to the Final Four. Creighton and Xavier are the only 2 members never to have made it to the Four Four. And frankly Xavier has made it to 2 Elite 8's in the past 11 years, which puts them nose to nose with VCU's single Final Four run. It should also be noted that Xavier won an NIT back in 1958 when that was as good as a Final Four. So, there's a lot of history and tradition with the Xavier program.

The problem with your comparison of Dayton's credentials with existing conference members is that when you start doing that, you've moved into the realm of irrelevancy. Since they're already members, they don't have to establish their credentials.

[NJRedman]

Breathe into a paper bag, chicken little. The sky is not falling.

1.) There's already an expansion thread where the four programs you mentioned have already been discussed at length, and
2.) After 130+ pages, the consensus I got was that there may be one or two good reasons to add all of them, but there's no compelling reason to add any of them.
3.) Please detail how Val Ackerman has "not been aggressive." Why? Because she hasn't expanded the league? It's still the first year, for God's sake. You want to expand for the sake of expanding.
4.) The AAC is not going to add Wichita, VCU, Dayton, and SLU. I mean, a hybrid football/basketball model worked out so well for them last time, right? Get real. None of those programs are going anywhere.
5.) Just for review:
Dayton: Won as many NCAA Tournament games last week as they had in the previous 30 years. Doesn't bring anything to the table Xavier doesn't already give you. Dayton aspires to be a poor man's Xavier.
Wichita State: Has only been past the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament twice in the last 33 years. Won as many games in the last 2 NCAA Tournaments as they had in the previous 47 years. Too small media market. Poor institutional fit.
Saint Louis: Institutional fit, but athletic Johnny-come-latelys. Some success compared to the poor state the program was in before, but the last time they got to the Regional Semifinals of the Tournament, Eisenhower was President.
VCU: Other than 2011 Final Four Run, VCU has never made it to the Sweet 16 in program history. NCAA Record without someone named Shaka Smart as the coach is 5-9.

I love how people point this stuff out like it means anything. Lets look at some of our current members stack up to your criteria.

SJU has been to 1 NCAA tournament in the last 10 years and hasn't won an NCAA tournament game since 2000.
Providence hasn't won a NCAA tournament game since 1997.
Seton Hall hasn't won a NCAA game since 2004 and has won just 2 since 2000.
Creighton hasn't won 2 NCAA games since 1974.
DePaul last won a NCAA game in 2004 and the last one before that was 1989.

So before we start talking about who has the all mighty credentials to get into the Big East we ought to be honest about what we're asking from teams. Dayton is having a better run than any of these teams in the last 15 years and in some cases even longer. VCU has had a better run than more than half the league has ever had, same goes for Wichita St.

I'm a fan of VCU to the Big East, but VCU had a better run than more than half the league has ever had? What half is that? I assume you're talking about VCU's run to the Final Four. Creighton and Xavier are the only 2 members never to have made it to the Four Four. And frankly Xavier has made it to 2 Elite 8's in the past 11 years, which puts them nose to nose with VCU's single Final Four run. It should also be noted that Xavier won an NIT back in 1958 when that was as good as a Final Four. So, there's a lot of history and tradition with the Xavier program.

The problem with your comparison of Dayton's credentials with existing conference members is that when you start doing that, you've moved into the realm of irrelevancy. Since they're already members, they don't have to establish their credentials.

No, you can't say that "This is what you need to do to get in" when many members wouldn't live up to those standards.

[PawJoe]

wow! I thought we were all friends here? Just want to through something in here about all the expansion talk and please be honest... At what point do we lose the home and away games? Those of us here in the past didn't it suck not playing home and away against teams? Heck the league got so big we didn't even play some teams for 3 or 4 years at a time! I don't care how big we get. I do care which teams comes into the league but I'm sure they will fit in no matter who the league picks.. BUT please don't get so big to lose the treasured game of home and away against your favorite rivals. That is what will build rivalries. Remember all the rivalries in the old BE came way before expansion of the league and I for one can not think of any that had formed in the past 15- years. So my questions are this.... Do you want home and away to go away? And what is the maximum number of teams we can have before losing home and away?

[notkirkcameron]

wow! I thought we were all friends here? Just want to through something in here about all the expansion talk and please be honest... At what point do we lose the home and away games? Those of us here in the past didn't it suck not playing home and away against teams? Heck the league got so big we didn't even play some teams for 3 or 4 years at a time! I don't care how big we get. I do care which teams comes into the league but I'm sure they will fit in no matter who the league picks.. BUT please don't get so big to lose the treasured game of home and away against your favorite rivals. That is what will build rivalries. Remember all the rivalries in the old BE came way before expansion of the league and I for one can not think of any that had formed in the past 15- years. So my questions are this.... Do you want home and away to go away? And what is the maximum number of teams we can have before losing home and away?

I would imagine the maximum number of teams you could have without losing home-and-away is 11, and even then, it would be dicey as to whether it would happen. 11 teams would mean 20 conference games under a double round-robin competition format like we have now. Only two conferences in Division 1 have a conference schedule with more than 18 games; the Big Sky, and the MAAC, both with 11 teams and a 20-game conference slate. When the Big Ten had 11 teams from the 1990s until 2011, they only played 16 or 18 games.

The trouble that you have with growing the conference schedule is that you limit your opportunities out of conference. This can come in the form of not being able to schedule a high-profile home-and-home, or not being able to participate in an exempt tournament, or even not being able to schedule enough buy games so your athletic department can get into the black. Keeping double-round robin past 11 teams means a minimum of 22 conference games.

The NCAA 2010-11 Division 1 Manual, Section 17.3.5 Number of Contests limits the number of regular season games to the following:
1.) If you are not participating in any in-season tournaments like Maui or the Pre-Season NIT, you can only schedule up to 29 regular season games.
OR
2.) If you are participating in an in-season tournament, you can schedule no more than 31 games, consisting of 27 regular season games, plus up to four in an exempt tournament.


In other words, let's say arguendo that the Big East adds VCU and SLU. We're now a 12-team league. Double round robin means a 22 game Big East conference slate. This means that teams participating in a tournament would only have FIVE extra games available to them.

[NJRedman]

wow! I thought we were all friends here? Just want to through something in here about all the expansion talk and please be honest... At what point do we lose the home and away games? Those of us here in the past didn't it suck not playing home and away against teams? Heck the league got so big we didn't even play some teams for 3 or 4 years at a time! I don't care how big we get. I do care which teams comes into the league but I'm sure they will fit in no matter who the league picks.. BUT please don't get so big to lose the treasured game of home and away against your favorite rivals. That is what will build rivalries. Remember all the rivalries in the old BE came way before expansion of the league and I for one can not think of any that had formed in the past 15- years. So my questions are this.... Do you want home and away to go away? And what is the maximum number of teams we can have before losing home and away?

Thats not true. We always played everyone once and 3 teams twice a year.