Conference Realignment Thread v. 2016

[DeltaV]

On a side note from a couple of pages ago...

In the never-happening scenario where a some ACC schools become available, am i the only one here that has no interest in having them join the Big East? I have absolutely no interest in watching Wake Forest (as little interest as Wake fans would have in watching PC). I have no interest in Boston College, even with their long history with us. I freakin hate Duke, and don't want them in our conference. Like, we're supposed to get all excited because of these clown ACC schools?

These ACC scenarios will never happen, but whatever, I like the 10 of us we already have.

That is all.

It's about more than just recent basketball success, it's about the institution as a whole. Private, academically rigorous, a good fit with the rest of the conference. Connections for graduates, helping to spread our brand across the nation. That's probably a bigger reason why Dayton and St Joe's aren't options... Not just TV markets, but regional spread. It's the reason the Big 10 took Rutgers.

Plus, they would help open up recruiting in the south. And I now live in south Carolina, so I could see a game in person again

And that's why UConn isn't a fit for us, and we both know it. We don't fit together. She's that girl we all dated who was fun, but in the end we were terrible for each other. Can we stop screaming about her to each other? They'll either be fine or they won't, but it's no matter to us. We won't save them, and they won't help us.

[_lh]

Bill,

We can go round and round on this if you like but we are never going to agree. You believe that UCONN can chase big time football and P5 membership forever and I think they will run out of money in the next decade or so without P5 membership. Time will tell who is correct.

For now, UCONN does not need the BE and the BE does not need UCONN. I am in favor of the BE staying at 10 teams forever but in the small chance either becomes available, I would be on board with adding UCONN and ND only. No other program would be worth it to me.

I'm with you. I don't think UConn wants to drop FB but it could come to it just because they have a realistic option to join a power conference if they drop FB.

Yeah. Bill just doesn't get it and at this point we might as well just ignore his pie in the sky hopes and dreams for UCONN football. He misrepresented what my stance was on the issue and continues to miss the point.

[gtmoBlue]

On a side note from a couple of pages ago...

In the never-happening scenario where a some ACC schools become available, am i the only one here that has no interest in having them join the Big East? I have absolutely no interest in watching Wake Forest (as little interest as Wake fans would have in watching PC). I have no interest in Boston College, even with their long history with us. I freakin hate Duke, and don't want them in our conference. Like, we're supposed to get all excited because of these clown ACC schools?

These ACC scenarios will never happen, but whatever, I like the 10 of us we already have.

That is all.

It's about more than just recent basketball success, it's about the institution as a whole. Private, academically rigorous, a good fit with the rest of the conference. Connections for graduates, helping to spread our brand across the nation. That's probably a bigger reason why Dayton and St Joe's aren't options... Not just TV markets, but regional spread. It's the reason the Big 10 took Rutgers.

Plus, they would help open up recruiting in the south. And I now live in south Carolina, so I could see a game in person again

And that's why UConn isn't a fit for us, and we both know it. We don't fit together. She's that girl we all dated who was fun, but in the end we were terrible for each other. Can we stop screaming about her to each other? They'll either be fine or they won't, but it's no matter to us. We won't save them, and they won't help us.

Great post DeltaV.

Private...Academics...Moves the needle with good sports (basketball, others)...and Institutional/cultural fit. Folks and universities outside of the BE can see that we have and are developing a very good to potentially great conference here. There will obviously be a couple of missteps by the league office (this coming season's Gavitt Games for example) along the way. Invariably a school or 2 will have a misstep as well. But overall the Big East is trending up-rapidly. IMO evry Div1 private school wishes they were in our shoes: no public disclosures (FOIA), far less reports to the gov't, not having to disclose their financial dealings, ignoring the curiosity of the public at-large. Privacy for universities is value-added: Institutional activities and business dealings, research agreements and fundings, investment portfolios, endowment transactions and holdings, internal spending (salaries, benefit packages, perks, facility expansions and upgrades, on and on). Universities are bigger than a mere tv or media rights contract. There is the Big Picture to consider. Privacy is a big piece of the pie.

Lastly, if a university wants to leave a conference and move (if it has an available option)...it doesn't matter what a conference says or threatens...the university will leave. Once a school has made the decision and embarked on that course they will not turn back (see ND, Louisville, Rutgers, Nebraska, Missouri, Texas AM, several others). If ESPN, err, the B1G and SEC do raid another conference...the tv money spigot gets shut off...and renegotiations occur based on the post-raid configuration(s). Folks here give the WWL much more credit (Steverrrr) than they are due - but the folks in Bristol ain't stupid. Exp: No more 15 team config...lost 4 prime movers...time to renegotiate the contract. It's called exercising contingency clauses. An ACC without UNC, UVA, VT, and Fl St (in football) is far less valuable than an ACC with those schools. The 18-22mill/school would immediately plummet 40-50%. :End of exp.

The Grant of Rights is supposed to stop the hemorrhaging...but it can't. Schools will take their current conference to court. They will embark upon vicious, protracted, and very public battles...the longer the better. Conferences do not like their dirty laundry hanging outside for all the world to see - they cave in to the demands of the school. Usually for much less money than a GOR stipulates.

After the next round of Football five raiding...folks nationwide will be shocked and awed at the fallout. Any private school(s) left in the wake will be seriously considering All of their options. For a private university needle-mover that can meet the criteria, the Big East will be a welcome site indeed.

And Val and the BE presidents will be standing there with the welcome mat, smiling.

[DeltaV]

On a side note from a couple of pages ago...

In the never-happening scenario where a some ACC schools become available, am i the only one here that has no interest in having them join the Big East? I have absolutely no interest in watching Wake Forest (as little interest as Wake fans would have in watching PC). I have no interest in Boston College, even with their long history with us. I freakin hate Duke, and don't want them in our conference. Like, we're supposed to get all excited because of these clown ACC schools?

These ACC scenarios will never happen, but whatever, I like the 10 of us we already have.

That is all.

It's about more than just recent basketball success, it's about the institution as a whole. Private, academically rigorous, a good fit with the rest of the conference. Connections for graduates, helping to spread our brand across the nation. That's probably a bigger reason why Dayton and St Joe's aren't options... Not just TV markets, but regional spread. It's the reason the Big 10 took Rutgers.

Plus, they would help open up recruiting in the south. And I now live in south Carolina, so I could see a game in person again

And that's why UConn isn't a fit for us, and we both know it. We don't fit together. She's that girl we all dated who was fun, but in the end we were terrible for each other. Can we stop screaming about her to each other? They'll either be fine or they won't, but it's no matter to us. We won't save them, and they won't help us.

Great post DeltaV.

Private...Academics...Moves the needle with good sports (basketball, others)...and Institutional/cultural fit. Folks and universities outside of the BE can see that we have and are developing a very good to potentially great conference here. There will obviously be a couple of missteps by the league office (this coming season's Gavitt Games for example) along the way. Invariably a school or 2 will have a misstep as well. But overall the Big East is trending up-rapidly. IMO evry Div1 private school wishes they were in our shoes: no public disclosures (FOIA), far less reports to the gov't, not having to disclose their financial dealings, ignoring the curiosity of the public at-large.

Lastly, if a university wants to leave a conference and move (if it has an available option)...it doesn't matter what a conference says or threatens...the university will leave. Once a school has made the decision and embarked on that course they will not turn back (see ND, Louisville, Rutgers, Nebraska, Missouri, Texas AM, several others)

The Grant of Rights is supposed to stop the hemorrhaging...but it can't. Schools will take their current conference to court. They will embark upon vicious, protracted, and very public battles...the longer the better. Conferences do not like their dirty laundry hanging outside for all the world to see - they cave in to the demands of the school. Usually for much less money than a GOR stipulates.

After the next round of Football five raiding...folks nationwide will be shocked and awed at the fallout. Any private school(s) left in the wake will be seriously considering All of their options. For a private university needle-mover that can meet the criteria, the Big East will be a welcome site indeed. And Val and the BE presidents will be standing there with the welcome mat, smiling.

Thanks...and I agree that things may get ugly in the next wave of reorganization. All the low hanging fruit has been picked (the old Big East). The football five will start to eat each other.

I was looking through some ACC boards today, and it was interesting to read what people were saying. No one was outright dismissing any of their 'lesser' teams (and even BC had quite the defense), but there was a lot of talk of 'doing what was necessary' to compete in top-tier football, and they didn't just mean paying for a good coach or facilities. They were talking about compromising academics. Being a Villanova grad, I'm proud that DO and Ryan are graduating...I think the only thing that could keep Hart around next year would be the pride in graduating as well. Yes, life is easier being an athlete; I was just a swimmer, and even I had specially coded applications (back then we applied on paper...hell, my application form to Duke was bright green) and least some of those resources available to me (I could have gotten in to any closed section I wanted...doesn't help when there are only 3 sections of Dynamics and they're all MWF mornings )

The posters were proud that Duke had 'done what was necessary', and complained that the likes of Wake and NC State weren't. I think I've heard commentary that a few other schools (Vanderbilt is the other name I've heard from a football 5 conference) are in the same boat. I'm not expecting them to drop, and I'm not holding my breath. But should a few schools sit back, take a stand, and say that they're not willing to compromise their ideals for the top dollars, then I say we welcome them with open arms and say yes, you can compete at a high level while graduating your players with actual degrees.

UConn and the others will take their place at the football feeding trough.

[Bill Marsh]

On a side note from a couple of pages ago...

In the never-happening scenario where a some ACC schools become available, am i the only one here that has no interest in having them join the Big East? I have absolutely no interest in watching Wake Forest (as little interest as Wake fans would have in watching PC). I have no interest in Boston College, even with their long history with us. I freakin hate Duke, and don't want them in our conference. Like, we're supposed to get all excited because of these clown ACC schools?

These ACC scenarios will never happen, but whatever, I like the 10 of us we already have.

That is all.

It's about more than just recent basketball success, it's about the institution as a whole. Private, academically rigorous, a good fit with the rest of the conference. Connections for graduates, helping to spread our brand across the nation. That's probably a bigger reason why Dayton and St Joe's aren't options... Not just TV markets, but regional spread. It's the reason the Big 10 took Rutgers.

One small point, which I pose more as a question than as a comment.

I don't think that regional spread is so important to the Big East. No doubt that the B1G took Rutgers & Maryland because of their markets and regional spread, not because of their powerhouse football programs.

However, regional spread is important to the B1G because they have their own network. Carriage fees are the key for the to make money off their network. Once their research convinced them that cable networks in NJ and MD would pick up the BTN, adding the 2 state flagships became a no brainier for them.

The BE, however, does not have its own network. They need ratings more than markets to drive up their value. For example,if they could bringin a 2nd team in an existing market that would double the ratings in that market, or that would have regional appeal beyond its market & would thereby increase ratings across the region, such a team in either scenario would be just as valuable to the BE as a team that brings a new market. The lack of a network means no new revenue from added carriage fees in a new market.

For that reason, I wouldn't rule out a school like Dayton. I know nothing about their ratings, but their attendance alone shows that have a strong following. If they could increase market penetration substantially in SW Ohio, that would be just as good as bringing anew market. (I'm not saying they would. IDK.)

We know that private colleges tend to draw from across a multi-state region to a greater extent than most publics do. Notre Dame and Duke are perfect examples of that fact. There are many others. So, again using the Dayton example, if they could increase ratings beyond SW Ohio, that too would offer value.

I'm not sure I'm right about this, so I invite others' POV. Anyone?

[NovaBall]

If Boston college were to drop football they would be very high on my list of teams to add. Right up there with uconn, notre dame, and cuse.

They aren't dropping football, so it doesn't matter, but I would add them in a second. They fit the institutional profile very well, and it would give the conference three of the top five catholic schools in the nation (and holy cross de-emphasized sports and notre dame being the other along with gtown and nova).

I also think BC basketball could do well out of the big east. Better sell to recruits, better fit for their program.

[DeltaV]

If Boston college were to drop football they would be very high on my list of teams to add. Right up there with uconn, notre dame, and cuse.

They aren't dropping football, so it doesn't matter, but I would add them in a second. They fit the institutional profile very well, and it would give the conference three of the top five catholic schools in the nation (and holy cross de-emphasized sports and notre dame being the other along with gtown and nova).

I also think BC basketball could do well out of the big east. Better sell to recruits, better fit for their program.

One of the 'total realignment' concepts that I've seen posted elsewhere was the creation of a 'private conference' for the likes of Syracuse, BC, Notre Dame, Duke, Miami, Vandy, Wake, Northwestern. One of the problems with it, though, was there weren't really enough teams to flesh it out (unless you really made it a coast-to-coast league with Stanford and BYU, although that would be a very interesting conference).

Now, I promise I haven't been drinking this morning...but what if that conference was us? ND, Duke, Northwestern I think are big enough in research dollars and sports that they can compete with the flagship state schools, and I think Miami has sold their soul for that as well. I know they would never willingly relegate to D1AA, but if they were 'left out', what about creating a D1AA/FCS/whatever the name is these days football conference? It would be centered in the northeast (maybe pick up an associate member from the CAA or Patriot like Fordham or Richmond), with school names that actually mean something to TV eyes in the NE corridor (when I was at Nova, we always joked about how irrelevant the football team was to us...but that was because we were playing the likes of UDelaware and...ummm, I don't remember anyone else they played; Villanova Georgetown? Villanova BC? That may actually get interest).

I love the 10 team round robin as much as anyone, but you have to admit a nice, reasonably geographically compact, "all sports" conference with 14 members would be interesting (or even 13), if those gets were Cuse, BC, Wake, and Vanderbilt. Emphasize the focus on big time basketball and big time undergrad education and alumni contacts, and beginning March under the lights in the Garden.

Ok, I'll put down the crack pipe now.

[Xudash]

If Boston college were to drop football they would be very high on my list of teams to add. Right up there with uconn, notre dame, and cuse.

They aren't dropping football, so it doesn't matter, but I would add them in a second. They fit the institutional profile very well, and it would give the conference three of the top five catholic schools in the nation (and holy cross de-emphasized sports and notre dame being the other along with gtown and nova).

I also think BC basketball could do well out of the big east. Better sell to recruits, better fit for their program.

One of the 'total realignment' concepts that I've seen posted elsewhere was the creation of a 'private conference' for the likes of Syracuse, BC, Notre Dame, Duke, Miami, Vandy, Wake, Northwestern. One of the problems with it, though, was there weren't really enough teams to flesh it out (unless you really made it a coast-to-coast league with Stanford and BYU, although that would be a very interesting conference).

Now, I promise I haven't been drinking this morning...but what if that conference was us? ND, Duke, Northwestern I think are big enough in research dollars and sports that they can compete with the flagship state schools, and I think Miami has sold their soul for that as well. I know they would never willingly relegate to D1AA, but if they were 'left out', what about creating a D1AA/FCS/whatever the name is these days football conference? It would be centered in the northeast (maybe pick up an associate member from the CAA or Patriot like Fordham or Richmond), with school names that actually mean something to TV eyes in the NE corridor (when I was at Nova, we always joked about how irrelevant the football team was to us...but that was because we were playing the likes of UDelaware and...ummm, I don't remember anyone else they played; Villanova Georgetown? Villanova BC? That may actually get interest).

I love the 10 team round robin as much as anyone, but you have to admit a nice, reasonably geographically compact, "all sports" conference with 14 members would be interesting (or even 13), if those gets were Cuse, BC, Wake, and Vanderbilt. Emphasize the focus on big time basketball and big time undergrad education and alumni contacts, and beginning March under the lights in the Garden.

Ok, I'll put down the crack pipe now.

Actually, that's perfectly good crack you're enjoying there. It's the right thought process: hold at ten. Then, if and until things begin to fracture with football for some of the less well positioned P5 private schools, begin thinking about the right schools among them - the sober ones that aren't in denial - to invite to the Big East.

It should be this simple:

- WE HAVE THE LUXURY OF PERFORMING AT A LEVEL THAT ALLOWS US TO WAIT AND WATCH.

- WE WAIT FOR THE PURPOSE OF SEEING WHETHER OR NOT BETTER, MORE PROVEN BRANDS COME FREE.

- WE DO NOT PULL MID-MAJORS UP FOR ANY REASON. THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE.

Bill, let me make this easy for you. If you plot a 100 mile radius around Cincinnati, you basically "collect" the following basketball programs and fan bases:

Xavier
UC
Ohio State
Kentucky
Indiana
Butler
UL (close enough)
Dayton

I trust you don't require much more in the way of an explanation from here.

[SCS]

I can't really foresee the private conference thing ever occurring, even if for some reason we imagine them relegating football or dropping it altogether. Some of the universities you mention are more natural academic fits for it: Wake, BC. But on the other hand, others such as Duke and Northwestern are major research powerhouses, none of the big east schools, even Marquette or Georgetown fit that description. Notre Dame and Miami would still want to associate its brand with the major athletic departments in the country, Wake would want to associate its brand with the other North Carolina schools, Cuse enjoys branding itself as the idyllic college experience in New York (and a big part of that is having football), Vanderbilt as the deep south southern antebellum alternative to the elite universities in the north. The current Big East members have a lot more in common, decent to strong undergrad programs and professional programs with basketball tradition.

[gtmoBlue]

In the event of a football raid on the ACC, it is unlikely the conference would dissolve/disband to form a "private"conference. They would have 11 schools leftover. Even if 1 or 2 others defected all they would
need to do is invite 1 or more from the C-USA, A-10, or AAC to continue business, at a reduced level -as compared
to the current configuration. I doubt the ACC would fold up camp and go away...it would just be weaker...and a non-
factor on the football stage.