The Ball talks Big East basketball

[TheBall]

The thing with depaul is that they are losing to bad teams. They have some okay players, they are losing to teams well below their talent level. That's where the inexcusable nature of their performance comes in. How do they lose by 40 to a team that goes in to lose to quinipiac the next game? That has nothing to do with facilities or fans or whatever, that is all coaching. The kids at depaul aren't trying, and that starts with the coach.

That is all i have to say about depaul. It is a shame they aren't trying to fix things. It should have been obvious after last season, but this December has been beyond bad.

To the depaul fans: hang in there, we are all rooting for you to get back on track and create a strong chicago presence for the league.

[Bill Marsh]

It's important to note that those 8 straight tournament "sellout" you mention were all forced sellouts. Tickets never went on sale to the general public. Because of the massive size of the conference, all of the available tickets to the tournament were given out in the allotments to each school and were thus considered sold whether each school could get rid of them or not, thus making the tournament "sold out" as far as the conference and the garden were concerned before a single ticket ever went on sale.

If any team failed to sell its full allotment, it's remaining tickets were offered to schools that did sell out, and then the school had to eat the cost of any remaining tickets.

So, as the ball mentioned, they were sold out ticket-wise, but not butts in seats - wise. The garden was only at capacity for the final and when either Uconn or Syracuse played.

That's true and it's a fair point. But as far as the bean counters at the Garden were concerned, they were all sell outs. If it takes more teams to be able to give teams allotments like they do in a football bowl game, then they need to get more teams. Apparently 10 teams is too few for them to be able to do that. The Garden is going to want them to pull their weight or they'll eventually turn to one of the other suitors. They can probably fill championship week with the ?ACC and the Big Ten in alternating years.

[Bill Marsh]

Not even a little bit concerned about the big ten in 2018. I look at that as a way to increase college hoops vibe in early March and will actually help the big east tourney among casual fans. New York city is unique in that it doesn't have a finite amount of fans. It is all about buzz. If the big ten tourney increases the buzz, then so be it, we benefit.

I'm not holding my breath on uconn, but they are one of the few teams I would actually consider. They are not going to stay in conference of Americans for longer than they have to, and the footballs five aren't knocking down their door. In five years they max out in their divorce settlement, and anything is possible. Conference of Americans is not their long term goal, and if the footballs five don't come calling then anything is possible. But I am not banking in them, just noting they are not off the table.

The conference should not expand just to expand. And adding teams like St. Louis or umass or even vcu constitutes expansion just for the sake of expansion. I am against that.

Big ten is looking to have a east coast tournament two or three times a decade. And that includes dc. They are never going to give the long term commitment that the big east has. I am comfortable knowing that. I don't think the sky is falling here, as I don't think the acc and big ten are committed enough to the northeast to really pose a long term threat. Embrace them as partners who can increase overall interest in northeast hoops, but at the end of the day their home bases are elsewhere.

As far as gonzaga, sign them up if it works. I would love it. Add st Mary's and BYU and St. Louis if need be. I am not against that. But again, I'm not sure if that is likely logistically possible.

But all this conference realignment is out of our control. Mental masturbation. Let's enjoy what we have, the rest is out if our control.

I agree that the conference should not expand just for the sake of expanding. I like the 10 team format.

But if you don't think that this is a war of attrition, then you haven't been paying attention. The Power 5 want to control college athletics and keep for themselves as much of the money as they can grab. Even then Big XII is on shaky ground. The power 5 is really trying to squeeze everyone else out.

So, it's not expand for the sake of expanding. It's expand for the sake of surviving as a power basketball conference. The Tournament - in the Garden - is a key piece of the formula that puts the Big East in the unique position that it holds as the only conference able to successfully challenge the P5.

VCU is a program that has averaged 25 wins per year and has gone to 7 tournaments since 2004 under 3 different coaches. Their 2011 Final Four legitimized them and made them a household name in a way that only a Final Four appearance can, in the same way that 2 such appearances did for Butler. Added to that were the signature wins over Duke in the 2007 tournament and over Wichita State in the 2012 tournament. There is absolutely no doubt that their presence would elevate the profile of the conference.

But even more important is that they are a school of 30,000 students just a few hours down I-95 and down the Amtrak line from MSG. They have the ability to put fans in the seats at tournament time and that is very important.

As for the Big Ten, I don't know what their plans are other that they are in fact moving their tournament to the Garden in 2018, that NYC is far more important to them than DC, as evidenced by the fact that they've opened an league office in Manhattan, and that they are in this fight to win. The Big East must fight back or it will suffer the same fate as the old Big East football coalition and will be destroyed as a viable competitor.

Gonzaga is absolutely doable. This is the 21st century. The conference schedule kicks off on New Year's Eve and is followed by 3 weeks of intercession when long distance travel presents absolutely no disruption to academics. They could even start conference schedule a few days earlier to ease travel even more. Presidents' Day weekend provides another day off when long distance travel is less burdensome. In the fall, schools are flying their teams to Alaska, Hawaii, and the Virgin Islands to get in "pre-season" tournaments. But they can't fly their teams to Spokane for one game? Notre dame flies it's entire football team with its entourage of cheerleaders, band, etc. to Ireland every year, but Big East schools can't fly to Spokane for one game? Seriously?

My questions are rhetorical and don't reflect on anything you've posted. I'm just making an argument the way a lawyer might.

OTOH, St. Mary's is out of the question. I don't believe their attendance has ever topped 3500. Despite some success in recent years. They're simply not a big time program. Gonzaga sells out every home game. They have a rabid following, some of whom would without doubt travel to NYC. St. Mary's simply does not have that kind of following, nor do they have the brand that Gonzaga does to attract casual fans in NYC to the tournament. And that after all is the goal.

[TheBall]

I think we need to put up the good fight. But I do not think expansion is the answer

I don't think that hoping for a thousand Ohioans from dayton and another thousand Virginians making the trip up I95 or some Minutemen hopping down 91 south for a Wednesday or Thursday basketball game is the answer. I think that providence, seton hall and St. John's bringing an extra thousand fans per game is the better and more plausible solution. At least for now. Let's hope these schools step it up, as they have the realistic means of making this happen.

And I don't fear the big ten or acc. Yes they want to play in our sand box. But at the end if the day they are just stopping by to play, it is still our sand box. That's why I am excited about about indiana at the garden this weekend, or syracuse or Duke at MSG against the johnnies, or nova playing Michigan and Illinois in the city. I view this as a positive. We just have to keep doing our thing. They need people to play with when they come to this region of the country, as rutgers surely is not what they hoped for. Let's embrace the challenge and beat them at the garden and Barclays. The same way providence took on the acc this year and made it happen.

And if the conference announces they are adding gonzaga and BYU tomorrow, I will be excited. I just don't see it happening, and don't expect it to happen. And the other options don't really help at this point.

So let's enjoy what we have instead of discussing teams to add to the party that aren't really worthy of being invited.

[Hall2012]

It's important to note that those 8 straight tournament "sellout" you mention were all forced sellouts. Tickets never went on sale to the general public. Because of the massive size of the conference, all of the available tickets to the tournament were given out in the allotments to each school and were thus considered sold whether each school could get rid of them or not, thus making the tournament "sold out" as far as the conference and the garden were concerned before a single ticket ever went on sale.

If any team failed to sell its full allotment, it's remaining tickets were offered to schools that did sell out, and then the school had to eat the cost of any remaining tickets.

So, as the ball mentioned, they were sold out ticket-wise, but not butts in seats - wise. The garden was only at capacity for the final and when either Uconn or Syracuse played.

That's true and it's a fair point. But as far as the bean counters at the Garden were concerned, they were all sell outs. If it takes more teams to be able to give teams allotments like they do in a football bowl game, then they need to get more teams. Apparently 10 teams is too few for them to be able to do that. The Garden is going to want them to pull their weight or they'll eventually turn to one of the other suitors. They can probably fill championship week with the ?ACC and the Big Ten in alternating years.

I see what you're saying, but I tend to agree with The Ball that I'm not convinced too many fans from those schools would make the trip after the first year novelty wears off (like I sure hope the same number of Creighton fans make the trip as last year, but I doubt it).

I think it makes sense that since three local schools that don't usually fill their allotments (SJU, SHU, PC as mentioned) now feel that they can be competitive in this tournament, they may start to do that- but again, those tickets are already sold regardless.

If selling out MSG is a main priority, the focus needs to be more on the NYC area casual fan than on individual schools (unless the plan is to expand so big that everything is given away in allotments again). I think the way to attract the casual fan is to focus on improving the quality of the current members rather than expanding and risking watering down the product.

Here's a somewhat crazy (and maybe unrealistic) idea, but it could certainly help with tourney attendance. What do you guys think of inviting 2 different guest teams to compete in the Big East tourney each year? For scheduling purposes they would pretty much have to be mid-majors, but each guest school would always bring that first year novelty that I fear would wear off for a school permanently added to the conference. But imagine if Gonzaga and Wichita State played in this year's BET, then next year it was Dayton and VCU. Maybe pull Cinderella from the previous tournament ( an FGCU type team that generated a lot of buzz. But of course the big kicker here is that we cannot ever let a guest team actually win the tournament (or reward winning the tournament with a full league invite lol).

[RDinNY]

It has aways been near impossible to get BET tickets in years past. I've contacted the St. john's ticket office and have always been told that their tickets are all gone. I would end up buying from scalpers or from fans whose team had lost early (if that wasn't us). Last year, I couldn't attend, so I don't know what the ticket situation was but there have always been plenty of St. John's fans in attendance.

[Hall2012]

It has aways been near impossible to get BET tickets in years past. I've contacted the St. john's ticket office and have always been told that their tickets are all gone. I would end up buying from scalpers or from fans whose team had lost early (if that wasn't us). Last year, I couldn't attend, so I don't know what the ticket situation was but there have always been plenty of St. John's fans in attendance.

If they do it anything like Seton Hall ( and I assume it's similar) they only sell BET tickets to season ticket holders at a minimum donation level. They also sell them all in November and early December, so if you're waiting until February to contact them they've either sold out themselves or already shipped their leftovers to another school.

[RDinNY]

It has aways been near impossible to get BET tickets in years past. I've contacted the St. john's ticket office and have always been told that their tickets are all gone. I would end up buying from scalpers or from fans whose team had lost early (if that wasn't us). Last year, I couldn't attend, so I don't know what the ticket situation was but there have always been plenty of St. John's fans in attendance.

If they do it anything like Seton Hall ( and I assume it's similar) they only sell BET tickets to season ticket holders at a minimum donation level. They also sell them all in November and early December, so if you're waiting until February to contact them they've either sold out themselves or already shipped their leftovers to another school.

I understand. I have not wanted, or been able, to get the entire tournament package. The point is, however, that the BET has always been sold out. The previous posts make it sound as if the tickets aren't sold. Of course, fans may not attend each session, even if they have the ticket package. As a result, some seats may be empty during certain games, but the tickets are all sold.

[TheBall]

I have been to a lot of big east tournament sessions and I have never bought my tickets through a school, and rarely have I paid much img a premium. Tickets were always sold out for the event, but that's easy when you only need 1,200 tickets per each of the 16 schools to reach 19,000 (not to mention the corporate give aways)

Anyway, my solution to the big east tournament ticket sales would be:
The five eastern schools are obligated to purchase 2,500 tickets per session
The five Midwest schools are obligated to purchase 1,200 per session
If some of the Midwest schools with larger season ticket bases want more of an aLot ent, that's great, and it reduces the obligation of the eastern schools.
I think that is realistic and doable.

Anyway, I agree with Bill marsh that we have to be better. I just think that the best way for the conference to get better is From within, not from expanding. I think it is more important to hope that 8,000 st johns fans show up to watch their team in Friday or Saturday at the garden rather than banking on people flying in from Ohio or driving hours from Virginia or western Massachusetts to attend the event.

The one thing about basketball that makes it different than College football is the regional nature of the events. At the end of the day you are talking about 3 times as man games, many of them on weeknights. It is not like football where a game can become a weekend event. It is something to do on a weeknight after work, and on weekends it can be something a bit bigger. And that formula requires more from the local fan bases than it does relying in fans that travel well. I remember I went to a bC/msu and kansas/st joeys double header at MSG in early 2005-2006 season. This event had two schools that supposedly have among the best traveling fans in the country. But this was a random weeknight game, and the largest fan representation was st Joe's and the garden has the feel of a Tuesday big east tournament session, and I doubt it ever topped 10k fans in the building at any time.

[DudeAnon]

I nominate "TheBall" for best username of 2014. A steal coming in this late, but he earned it.