Why are we treating obvious athletes as "students"?

[Hall2012]

What my house is made of? Providence did exactly what St. John's won't. Trash all the nonsense and start fresh. If you can talk to me about Cooley and dirty recruiting, then, please, inform us all. I hate Keno, the program was a mess, but we figured it out. Your turn.

I don't know that "dirty" recruiting is the issue with Cooley at Providence, but an issue he does seem to have in common with Lavin is recruiting some questionable character guys because of their talent. PC has had issues lately with top recruits missing time or no seeing the floor at all due to suspensions/legal issues. The injuries can be bad considered some bad luck, but the suspensions and off the court issues a product of the guys you recruit. Maybe Cooley and Lavin think they can reel these guys in and control them- and some of them you can, but some are just too far gone.

My Seton Hall Pirates were in that same boat with Bobby Gonzalez as the head coach. He constantly had the team in the news, but for all the wrong reasons. He couldn't get away with it though because he wasn't winning. That and he was an off the court problem himself- the guy really embarrassed the program. Kevin Willard has done a great job cleaning up that mess (although potentially at the expense of winning basketball games). He came in and kicked 2 Gonzalez recruits off the team (and said he put up with too much and should have done it sooner). Since then any discipline problems at SHU have been very small. This past year, he was drill-sergeant-like, for example suspending Sterling Gibbs, Brian Oliver, and Gene Teague a game each for not working hard enough and having a good attitude in practice.

I'm not saying one way is better than the other. It' just kind of a play it safe vs risk/reward situation. Cooley was rewarded with a Big East Championship while Willard is reaching a point where he may need to take a risk to save his job. The best coaches seem to be able to find the balance between the two.

[FriarsForever]

My argument isn't about bad luck or bad apples, and I feel like that's such a generalization for PC. From the outside looking in I see your point. Kiwi, Sidiki, Ledo, Austin---it doesn't look good. However, this is not Cooley recruiting questionable character because of talent...? Brandon Austin was by all accounts a phenomenal kid in high school. Likeable kid with a decently rough upbringing, just like Cooley. Can't blame the guy for relating to Austin so much. Austin made a huge mistake, obviously, then ran off to repeat that mistake. There was no inclination his character was questionable. I don't think that should be how Cooley's way of recruiting should be viewed simply based on that. Kiwi was no big time player. He was a filler when we needed another guard as an insurance policy. Sidiki has documented health issues that Cooley knew about and I will go no farther than that. These guys were not make-or-break recruits for Providence, rather, guys Cooley could afford to take a chance on. Finally, Ledo, come on. Born and bred in Providence, grew up very close with Cooley by default, of course they were gonna take a shot at him. If those weren't the circumstances, Cooley would never be going after a kid with Ricky's head.

My argument is simply, a lot of their problem stem from a sleazy head coach that the whole nation A. knew was sleazy at UCLA, B. knew was going to be sleazy at St. John's C. warned St. John's about his nonsense and D. knows is sleazy at St. John's.

[marquette]

Before we take any more potshots at our conference-mates let's take a moment to remember that we live in glass houses. There is not a single program in the conference (or any major conference) that hasn't had some disciplinary issues or questionable recruiting situations in the last 10 years. It's probably better to concede that there are no perfect programs and get back to discussing turning amateurs into professionals.

[Hall2012]

That was in no way meant to be a shot at Providence, just an observation of several recent off of the court issues. As Marquette points out, no program is perfect and we've all had them. Like I said before, Seton Hall had far worse off-court issues not that long ago and I saw up close how that can adversely affect a program. Maybe the incidents at PC are just a few isolated incidents and nothing to worry about, but when they happen that close together it raises a fear that it could become a trend. That's not to say the Friars don't have a lot of great guys. I'm sure most of them are, but sometimes one guy messing up can really hurt a team. That being said, I think that Cooley has done a fantastic job addressing issues as soon as they come up and not letting anything turn into a locker room cancer.

Marquette-I think this is relevant the thread. The large majority of kids with off-court issues are exactly the ones we're discussing who realistically have no interest in being students and only care to use college basketball as a high publicity development league from which to get noticed and hopefully signed by an NBA team.

[FriarsForever]

I didn't think you were taking a shot at PC, Hall. No worries. Obviously I see through black and white colored glasses before anything else. It's just that Cooley is a no bullsh-- coach. His main goal is to recruit character first. His philosophy was no different when recruiting those guys either. Did he misjudge them? Apparently so. However he did not judge them based on talent first. Cooley won't let somebody play for his team just because he has talent.

[marquette]

That was in no way meant to be a shot at Providence, just an observation of several recent off of the court issues. As Marquette points out, no program is perfect and we've all had them. Like I said before, Seton Hall had far worse off-court issues not that long ago and I saw up close how that can adversely affect a program. Maybe the incidents at PC are just a few isolated incidents and nothing to worry about, but when they happen that close together it raises a fear that it could become a trend. That's not to say the Friars don't have a lot of great guys. I'm sure most of them are, but sometimes one guy messing up can really hurt a team. That being said, I think that Cooley has done a fantastic job addressing issues as soon as they come up and not letting anything turn into a locker room cancer.

Marquette-I think this is relevant the thread. The large majority of kids with off-court issues are exactly the ones we're discussing who realistically have no interest in being students and only care to use college basketball as a high publicity development league from which to get noticed and hopefully signed by an NBA team.

Understood, and I agree. I didn't mean to call you out specifically. The whole kids who aren't academically prepared issue is definitely relevant to the discussion. I tend to be a little overly sensitive. That said, it can pretty easily turn into a finger-pointing "well at least my school isn't as bad a Y." I know I've been guilty of flying off the handle in the past, so I might not be the best advocate, but I really like the overall environment of comradery around here. We've been a little more contentious this season than last, but we still seem overall fairly amicable.

[DudeAnon]

Why can't we have the best of both worlds? Keep the student restrictions but make them student-employees? This way the tradition remains and the players get their fair share of the pie. As for St. Johns. Tough break, but such is life with student-athletics.

Should be noted that many countries have universities just for athletes, where all you do is hone your craft. If you don't go on to be a professional then you become a trainer or coach. Why schools don't have programs like this is beyond me.

[cujaysfan]

it can be done successfully

recruit kids that aren't dipshits and are serious about furthering their education

give them all the support they need (and maybe some more on top of that)

i know it's football - but ND and Stanford are both pretty successful on the field to go with this documented classroom success

http://www.und.com/genrel/102914aac.html

[Amase2]

What my house is made of? Providence did exactly what St. John's won't. Trash all the nonsense and start fresh. If you can talk to me about Cooley and dirty recruiting, then, please, inform us all. I hate Keno, the program was a mess, but we figured it out. Your turn.

Was it not two providence recruits who were suspended for sexually assaulting a student? But lavin recruiting academic question marks makes him a sleazeball? That makes him a dirty recruiter? Providence hasnt had any of those?

I am far from a Lavin supporter, but this sleazeball, car salesmen nonsense is so fabricated. People dont like him because he slicks his hair back and he talks for long period of time. Sure takes risks in recruiting and hes not a good in game coach. But shit, sure beats watching norm Roberts sweat it out.

People like to forget:
Lavin- 5 sweet sixteens
Rest of BE coaches : 8 sweet sixteens

[NJRedman]

What my house is made of? Providence did exactly what St. John's won't. Trash all the nonsense and start fresh. If you can talk to me about Cooley and dirty recruiting, then, please, inform us all. I hate Keno, the program was a mess, but we figured it out. Your turn.

Where's Lavins dirty recruiting? I'm sure Providence has never EVER had a player be declared ineligible before right?