VCU in the BE may be a dead issue

[stever20]

I do agree Memphis probably would have gotten in. Imagine that Big East with them in as well as what we had already... Brutal...

What gets interesting is 2011. Does Memphis go to the Big 12 instead of West Virginia? Not saying that changes everything, but it does make things more interesting for sure.

As far as 2013, you wonder what the expansion becomes when the split happens. If we have 8, do we add Butler and Xavier and stop at 10? Very possible Does VCU become more of a factor given that we have a public school at that point in UConn. Very possible. Could see the BE8 plus Butler and VCU for 10. Creighton in this scenario becomes much less of a guarantee I think.

[NJRedman]

Interesting replies! First of all, I am a computer klutz. While attempting another post, something really screwy happened with my computer and I very quickly bailed, having been hacked before. I take no chances in that scenario. Thank you so much for your attacks on my integrity. Apologies accepted.

Question: During the early days of the new Big East, did the presidents offer membership to UCONN or Cincy (or VCU- would have been a perfect time to offer) before offering to the 3 new members? If not, why not? Why would they consider them now in any future expansion?

My opinion on VCU joining the BE? It would be great! I simply do not see it happening unless Fox "persuades" the presidents to do so. If it does happen, please feel free to scream "Itoldjaso!"

No apology offered.

The Presidents offered 3 schools, you don't offer someone membership unless you're damn sure they will accept it. Also, no chance of Cincy ever coming back, though UConn has actual history with the league and most of it's current members. They were in the BE for 34 years before the split. If they decided to drop FB i'm pretty sure at least 5 of the current schools would take them back in a heart beat and i'm also fairly certain that the other five would as well. We're talking about a program that has won 3 NCAA championships in 20 years (Not to mention the dozen or so the women have won). VCU wasn't offered because not everyone was sold on them for a vary of reasons. Some didn't want a public school, some didn't want them based on geography (As in their proximity to themselves), some wanted to stop at ten and some just wasn't sold on their longevity. You can't compare VCU with UConn. It's not even the same solar system, no offense VCU folks, UConn would be the flagship of this current BE seeing how they have just won a national title and have more under their belts.

The league will eventually expand since their TV partners want that. So sooner rather than later we will see two more schools added to the conference. We're all pretty sure SLU is a lock. They just have too much of what the Presidents and their TV partners want. The next is anyones guess, I have a feeling their will be bitching and complaining the day it's finally announced or when legit rumors start leaking.

[Bill Marsh]

Let's play some alternate history


I say that because if UConn had never added football, so many conference decisions over the past 10 years have been made as dominoes fall (ACC adds Miami, VT and BC.....so then the Big East adds USF, UL, UC, DPU, and MU....so then C-USA adds Marshall, UTEP, etc.) If UConn never upgraded their football to FBS, they would have been, effectively, Villanova/Georgetown/Butler.

In 2003, when the ACC poached VT, Miami, and BC, UConn's Big East transition was accelerated, but if UConn had never upgraded to FBS, the loss of those three teams would have brought the Big East to 5 football members (Rutgers, Syracuse, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, Temple)....so then maybe Temple isn't cut loose. If they're not, would the old Big East's realigment choices have stayed the same?

USF oddly is the most likely fit as they were discussed to be the replacement for media exposure and recruitment in Florida.

Adding only one of Cincinnati and Louisville would have only gotten the league to 7, so then probably both would be added.

However, a football conference with only 8 teams means an uneven number of home/away games. The MWC struggled with this for years. So the old Big East probably would have sought a 9th football team. Villanova and Georgetown appear unwilling to upgrade their programs to FBS, and we're assuming UConn is off the table. UMass had not yet upgraded to FBS, although presumably UConn would have objected to a move which would have strengthened UMass' dormant basketball program. In a way this would not be too different from BC reportedly blocking the ACC from adding UConn. So where does the Big East get the 9th program from? I wouldn't have been surprised to see the Big East add Memphis. That would have gotten them to 9 programs and added a quality basketball program. The Big East would have 9 for football (Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Temple, Rutgers, West Virginia, Cincinnati, South Florida, Louisville, Memphis), and 15 for basketball, which at the time, was pretty much unheard of for a major basketball conference. If Temple was added as an all-sports member (presumably not, at Villanova's insistence), it would be a 16-team basketball league. Where am I going with this?

So at a 15 or 16-team basketball league, Marquette and DePaul may have never been invited to the Big East. They'd have been left in a Conference USA which would still have 4 non-football programs (MU, DPU, SLU, UNCC), however, all the other programs worth playing had been ripped out of the conference. The only other programs left would be TCU, Houston, Tulane, East Carolina, UAB, and Southern Miss. TCU would have needed to add at least two more football members, which in all likelihood, would have continued watering down the basketball as football schools like Marshall and Central Florida stepped in to fill the void.

What's perhaps equally as likely is that those four schools would try to grab some like-minded programs from the old Metro/Great Midwest days, and pull a new conference together that would probably include: Marquette, DePaul, Saint Louis, NC-Charlotte, Butler, Dayton, Xavier, Creighton, and VCU. Effectively, the same conversation we're having right now without the Eastern media markets. The basketball would not have been on ESPN, but it wouldn't have been sub-par either. You'd probably only see 3, 4 teams tops in the tournament every year, but it would beat road trips to Hattiesburg.

No point to this, and none of it would stop the Big Ten from moving to get Nebraska, but it's just a fun "what if" to play.

Completely implausible.

[MackNova]

Natty, my basic points are:

State schools are just that- state. Their owners have a big say on the decisions, including sports and conference affiliation.

VCU will have FB if the politicians want them to have it. Was Connecticut not "cash-strapped" when the decision was made to venture into FB?

VCU has been a phenomenal success in growth- facilities, academics, basketball, student population- and this inevitably inspires the universitiy's masters to want more.

Also, how could a cash-strapped newspaper afford a sports reporter who covers only little University of Richmond? How could your sources be superior to his?

I should have noted that IF VCU builds a stadium, it will almost certainly be on land currently zoned commercial. I cannot see them taking residential property for a non-academic building. In addition to the areas mentioned, Scotts Addition has many old wharehouses and there is also Manchester.

Bottom line- yes, FB may well be in VCU's future whether or not they want it. A deal with the Big East could always be trumped by Virginia. Despite VCU's great bball resume' they would be a flight risk, as would UCONN, Cincy, etc. After the BE debacle, I doubt that the presidents are willing to take a chance on a repeat performance.

Before making any assumptions here, stop for a minute and contemplate the UConn comparison for a minute

1. UConn made the move to football to protect their basketball program by getting into a BCS conference. With realignment, schools like UConn are now on the outside looking in and with power conference access appearing to be tougher than ever.
2. At the time it made its decision, UConn had a guarantee for membership in a BCS conference. VCU has no such guarantee.
3. It took UConn a dozen years from concept to BCS competition. VCU may be worth adding even if it means they'll be gone in 10-12 years. More likely a lot more. The conference upgrades now with VCU and then replaces VCU down the road with someone in the East who is more ready to step up than anyone is right now.

If VCU is unacceptable due to issues of FOI and institutional fit, that's one thing. But if the concerns are about football, that's not a good reason.

Agree 100%.

The specter of football is no reason not to accept VCU. People seem petrified that a school might join the Big East and eventually leave. I think that's crap. The Big East is situated as the premier non-football conference. Teams that don't play FBS football would love to play in the Big East. Even if VCU leaves in 5 years, we get 5 years of a good program and can replace them with another team that comes along.

[NJRedman]

I do agree Memphis probably would have gotten in. Imagine that Big East with them in as well as what we had already... Brutal...

What gets interesting is 2011. Does Memphis go to the Big 12 instead of West Virginia? Not saying that changes everything, but it does make things more interesting for sure.

As far as 2013, you wonder what the expansion becomes when the split happens. If we have 8, do we add Butler and Xavier and stop at 10? Very possible Does VCU become more of a factor given that we have a public school at that point in UConn. Very possible. Could see the BE8 plus Butler and VCU for 10. Creighton in this scenario becomes much less of a guarantee I think.

I don't think Memphis would have gotten the nod from the Big XII unless they did a 180 on the FB field. Even then they still would be contending with not just the Mountaineers but also Louisville.

I don't think the presidents would have over looked CU's huge fan base. I think they would have expanded with four new schools, the 3 we did invite and SLU. The Billikins are really a perfect fit in the league and Fox would have been happy with the additions as well as the amount of games they would get.

[NJRedman]

Agree 100%.

The specter of football is no reason not to accept VCU. People seem petrified that a school might join the Big East and eventually leave. I think that's crap. The Big East is situated as the premier non-football conference. Teams that don't play FBS football would love to play in the Big East. Even if VCU leaves in 5 years, we get 5 years of a good program and can replace them with another team that comes along.

I think it would come down to are you committed to the conference? If are looking to add FB then you are not committed to the Big East and whats best for the conference as a whole. Why would we take 5 years of VCU to then take all the crap that comes along with getting raided? Especially if that conference is the AAC. It's one thing if one of our members goes to the B1G or ACC, but going to a conference like the AAC or CUSA would be a bad blow to the image of the conference.

The conference has made it's requirements clear, schools who do not play and do not wish to play football at the FBS level only. If anyone has FBS aspirations then they need to figure out what they want before trying to gain acceptance to the Big East conference.

[MackNova]

Agree 100%.

The specter of football is no reason not to accept VCU. People seem petrified that a school might join the Big East and eventually leave. I think that's crap. The Big East is situated as the premier non-football conference. Teams that don't play FBS football would love to play in the Big East. Even if VCU leaves in 5 years, we get 5 years of a good program and can replace them with another team that comes along.

I think it would come down to are you committed to the conference? If are looking to add FB then you are not committed to the Big East and whats best for the conference as a whole. Why would we take 5 years of VCU to then take all the crap that comes along with getting raided? Especially if that conference is the AAC. It's one thing if one of our members goes to the B1G or ACC, but going to a conference like the AAC or CUSA would be a bad blow to the image of the conference.

The conference has made it's requirements clear, schools who do not play and do not wish to play football at the FBS level only. If anyone has FBS aspirations then they need to figure out what they want before trying to gain acceptance to the Big East conference.

Unless the power football conferences are going to become hybrid conferences, the Big East won't get raided. If we lose a team here and there because they take a shot by building an FBS football program, then so be it. We can reevaluate and get the best option when they leave. Maybe a clear option emerges.

[Bill Marsh]

Agree 100%.

The specter of football is no reason not to accept VCU. People seem petrified that a school might join the Big East and eventually leave. I think that's crap. The Big East is situated as the premier non-football conference. Teams that don't play FBS football would love to play in the Big East. Even if VCU leaves in 5 years, we get 5 years of a good program and can replace them with another team that comes along.

I think it would come down to are you committed to the conference? If are looking to add FB then you are not committed to the Big East and whats best for the conference as a whole. Why would we take 5 years of VCU to then take all the crap that comes along with getting raided? Especially if that conference is the AAC. It's one thing if one of our members goes to the B1G or ACC, but going to a conference like the AAC or CUSA would be a bad blow to the image of the conference.

The conference has made it's requirements clear, schools who do not play and do not wish to play football at the FBS level only. If anyone has FBS aspirations then they need to figure out what they want before trying to gain acceptance to the Big East conference.

1. VCU is not a football school and there's no evidence they ever will be one.
2. There's no way they could get a football program up and running quickly enough to be attractive even to the AAC in 5 years. It would take a lot longer than that.
3. You can't be serious in saying that a conference losing a member is a bad blow to the image of the conference - especially when we're the Big East and have already lost a ton of members. The ACC lost a member. The Big XII has lost members. They bot are still power conferences with lucrative TV contracts.

[NJRedman]

Agree 100%.

The specter of football is no reason not to accept VCU. People seem petrified that a school might join the Big East and eventually leave. I think that's crap. The Big East is situated as the premier non-football conference. Teams that don't play FBS football would love to play in the Big East. Even if VCU leaves in 5 years, we get 5 years of a good program and can replace them with another team that comes along.

I think it would come down to are you committed to the conference? If are looking to add FB then you are not committed to the Big East and whats best for the conference as a whole. Why would we take 5 years of VCU to then take all the crap that comes along with getting raided? Especially if that conference is the AAC. It's one thing if one of our members goes to the B1G or ACC, but going to a conference like the AAC or CUSA would be a bad blow to the image of the conference.

The conference has made it's requirements clear, schools who do not play and do not wish to play football at the FBS level only. If anyone has FBS aspirations then they need to figure out what they want before trying to gain acceptance to the Big East conference.

Unless the power football conferences are going to become hybrid conferences, the Big East won't get raided. If we lose a team here and there because they take a shot by building an FBS football program, then so be it. We can reevaluate and get the best option when they leave. Maybe a clear option emerges.

Thats the point, the schools don't want to deal with "So be it", they want conference stability going forward. I'm sorry, but VCU is not worth the headache for a few years of membership. I don't know how you can say we wont get raided but it would be okay if a member jumps to FBS? If one of our schools jumps up to FBS and leaves we have just been raided. Would it look good for the conference if one of our members goes to CUSA, AAC or god forbid the Sun Belt? No, it would reflect poorly on us all if that happened. Also I think the Presidents and boosters are sick and tired of waiting for FB members to leave and dealing with them threatening to leave. If VCU or anyone else wants to flirt with FBS then there is no way they get invited, im sure VCU would have to give assurances that they have no desire to move up the CFB ranks.

[NJRedman]

Agree 100%.

The specter of football is no reason not to accept VCU. People seem petrified that a school might join the Big East and eventually leave. I think that's crap. The Big East is situated as the premier non-football conference. Teams that don't play FBS football would love to play in the Big East. Even if VCU leaves in 5 years, we get 5 years of a good program and can replace them with another team that comes along.

I think it would come down to are you committed to the conference? If are looking to add FB then you are not committed to the Big East and whats best for the conference as a whole. Why would we take 5 years of VCU to then take all the crap that comes along with getting raided? Especially if that conference is the AAC. It's one thing if one of our members goes to the B1G or ACC, but going to a conference like the AAC or CUSA would be a bad blow to the image of the conference.

The conference has made it's requirements clear, schools who do not play and do not wish to play football at the FBS level only. If anyone has FBS aspirations then they need to figure out what they want before trying to gain acceptance to the Big East conference.

1. VCU is not a football school and there's no evidence they ever will be one.
2. There's no way they could get a football program up and running quickly enough to be attractive even to the AAC in 5 years. It would take a lot longer than that.
3. You can't be serious in saying that a conference losing a member is a bad blow to the image of the conference - especially when we're the Big East and have already lost a ton of members. The ACC lost a member. The Big XII has lost members. They bot are still power conferences with lucrative TV contracts.

1. I never said they were, i'm just playing devils advocate if they did start one while as a member of the Big East.

2. Once again, playing devils advocate.

3. We lost members who took a step up in the FB ranks. If we lose members to what we even see ourselves as weaker conferences than that most definitely reflects poorly on us all as a conference. Losing a member to CUSA or the Sun Belt is most definitely bad for the conference. The ACC and Big XII lost members to more powerful conferences.