Conference realignment discussion - v. 2015

[pki1998]

You add one role player in Bona who’s OOC scheduling and ability to constantly exceed expectations make them never hurt you. And they’re in an uncontested region that could net you TWO top 50 TV markets in Buffalo and Rochester.

I applaud your support for the Bonnies. I don't think they will ever be added but it's nice to see a passionate fan. I do have a question, does St Bonnies really deliver both Buffalo and Rochester markets. I thought it was was about an hour and a half from Buffalo, even farther from Rochester. With Catholic schools Canisius and Niagara closer to both cities and SUNY Buffalo to compete with it seems odd to believe that St Bonnie can deliver both of these markets.

[Xudash]

Agreed re no expansion. We have an awesome league of terrific schools. If it aint broke...

To the moderators: - i wish you would post this - I come in peace

As a lifelong UD follower, I can honestly tell you that the vast majority of UD fans and the admin are really not interested in joining the BE
On the surface it seems surprising, however UD has finally built the team and has the top tier coach that if he leaves, will pave the way
for another quality coach to follow. UD gets plenty of national exposure through the FIRST FOUR and exposure and virtually every game is broadcast on ESPN, NBC and CBS
If they joined the the BE they would also have to cater to the whims of FOX. The UD administration is not a big fan of that network, or any other network pulling strings ( the sports and news divisions.)

I do respect the BE and XU, and it is an interesting league, thats why i frequent this board, however honestly UD admin and fans like where they are
right now. 3 years ago, they would have had a different opinion.

Let's come at this from a slightly different direction, without being antagonistic.

As has already been pointed out, there is no way the President of UD would turn down an invitation to join the Big East were one extended, because he is focused on and managing at the institutional level, not just the athletic level. This would be about institutional alignment and brand management for him. He would perform a couple of dog tricks for the BE Presidents assigned to call him with the invitation if it would get them to the phone faster. And yes, this would be a President to President call; the call would not be placed by Val Ackerman.

He would want BE membership for institutional alignment, and he certainly would be jumping for joy over $4+million per year just from a media rights deal and the bona fide national television exposure that comes with it, as well as the opportunity for his program to improve its recruiting, better retain its coaching staff, and achieve better tournament seeding through performance. BTW, the lift that has come for other sports as a result of BE membership has been delightful. And it's all so good that I'll mention the Big East Tournament in MSG as a bona fide advantage lastly.

Now allow me to be very frank with you: I was over the moon when Xavier made the jump from the MCC to the A10. One of our first games back then was against UMASS/Calipari when they were #1 in the nation and we took them to OT in the Cincinnati Gardens. Temple obviously was a part of it. Hell, VA-Tech was a member back in the 90's, etc. I respect what the A10 did for Xavier and what Xavier did for the A10.

All that noted, I can see where it may be hard for you to comprehend the difference in talent that a Big East team accumulates versus what can be done on the recruiting front in the A10. I read UDPRIDE before and after our game with UD in Orlando - I'll visit competitors' boards from time to time to see what they're thinking. As expected, it seemed most of the Flyer faithful found fault in how UD played or with the inexperience of UD's freshmen, etc. They either had no clue or failed to accept the marked difference in talent between Xavier and UD, and the 29-point annihilation proved that out. You see, we played a number of underclassmen in that game, too. Long story short: you may be happy with the team that UD has built, but its built for the A10, not for the Big East.

Frankly, and I truly don't mean to be antagonistic, but you guys operate with a sense of worth that just doesn't reconcile with your standing in college basketball. That really trips you guys up and it gives rise to a number of your fans being considered delusional, and they are delusional. UD doesn't get "plenty of national exposure" from hosting play-in games, as has also already been mentioned. Your media package is a disaster. As a fan of a program that formerly competed in the A10, I know that to be fact and, unlike UD now, at least Xavier had its own media deal with FoxSportsOhio back then.

I don't know what "catering to the whims of Fox" means. UD has no leverage with any of the national media. Otherwise, UD does not have the stature to be a big fan or to not be a big fan of any network, nor is it in any kind of position to react to strings being pulled in any fashion. As far as that goes, neither does any member of the Big East. As an aside, on this matter of perception versus reality, someone on XH recently went onto Pride for some reason and came back to report that a UD fan stated that Archie makes $2.5 million per year - and that apparently was accepted as fact! It's great to have pride in your school and all of that, but having a sense of your real standing will help with your reputation and credibility in the long run - the "you" refers to the general you, not you, specifically.

If you are happy in the A10 by virtue of now having a clearer path to the NCAA Tournament, as a result of the reduced caliber of the A10, that's your right; you're entitled to your preferences. If you believe the current situation is in your best interests, then so be it.

You just need to understand your message about UD being happy in the A10 isn't translating all that well here. UD and other A10 schools are the ones on the outside looking in. Standing outside in the cold and yelling about not wanting in, especially in the face of clear, abundant, and compelling reasons for inclusion, doesn't look all that swift.

[Jet915]

Agreed re no expansion. We have an awesome league of terrific schools. If it aint broke...

To the moderators: - i wish you would post this - I come in peace

As a lifelong UD follower, I can honestly tell you that the vast majority of UD fans and the admin are really not interested in joining the BE
On the surface it seems surprising, however UD has finally built the team and has the top tier coach that if he leaves, will pave the way
for another quality coach to follow. UD gets plenty of national exposure through the FIRST FOUR and exposure and virtually every game is broadcast on ESPN, NBC and CBS
If they joined the the BE they would also have to cater to the whims of FOX. The UD administration is not a big fan of that network, or any other network pulling strings ( the sports and news divisions.)

I do respect the BE and XU, and it is an interesting league, thats why i frequent this board, however honestly UD admin and fans like where they are
right now. 3 years ago, they would have had a different opinion.

So by this, u mean ESPNU, ESPN3, NBCSN and CBSSN?

[Ball Turret Gunner]

I have to echo Murphy's sentiments as a UD fan myself. I could not be more pleased with Dayton's position. I think they are in a position to be a dominant force in their league and get into the NCAA tournament almost every year. And when they get there, they seem to be proving that they belong and more.... Xudash, you have really taken the 30 point win to heart. If you get whomped by Nova by 30, does that mean the talent wasn't close? I've been to some whoopings of the Muskies by UD in the final years of those match-ups and the rematches in the same years were usually very competitive games. So don't extrapolate a single game whooping as your evidence.

Back to my original point about UD's strategic position right now. I'm quite pleased. I think they have something going. They are beginning to establish a good rep under Archie. I think they have the "program" essentials to carry it into the future. I don't think they need a different conference to lean on for that.

Good luck to the Big East teams that make it into the Dance this year. Hope to see you there.

[Xudash]

I have to echo Murphy's sentiments as a UD fan myself. I could not be more pleased with Dayton's position. I think they are in a position to be a dominant force in their league and get into the NCAA tournament almost every year. And when they get there, they seem to be proving that they belong and more.... Xudash, you have really taken the 30 point win to heart. If you get whomped by Nova by 30, does that mean the talent wasn't close? I've been to some whoopings of the Muskies by UD in the final years of those match-ups and the rematches in the same years were usually very competitive games. So don't extrapolate a single game whooping as your evidence.

Back to my original point about UD's strategic position right now. I'm quite pleased. I think they have something going. They are beginning to establish a good rep under Archie. I think they have the "program" essentials to carry it into the future. I don't think they need a different conference to lean on for that.

Good luck to the Big East teams that make it into the Dance this year. Hope to see you there.

I haven't taken the UD thrashing to heart. I expected a victory.

You are showing your ignorance in comparing Xavier's loss at Nova to Xavier's victory over UD. Within the first few minutes of that game, Edmund Sumner went out of the Pavilion on a stretcher, with the place dead silent and no one knowing what condition he was in. No one on the Xavier side was very much into playing a basketball game after that.

You've also failed to witness a victory by UD at Xavier (Cincinnati) since the end of the Carter Administration, and Xavier has otherwise owned UD over the last 2 to 3 decades.

Enjoy Archie for as long as you have him from here. He has done well for UD, especially given all those years of mediocrity.

Finally, why do you guys feel compelled to come here to state that you're okay with UD remaining in the A10? This obviously is a Big East board. And I doubt many here believe being in the A10 is a good thing, nor do they care about UD accepting their higher positioning in a mid-major conference.

[pki1998]

I've been to some whoopings of the Muskies by UD in the final years of those match-ups and the rematches in the same years were usually very competitive games. So don't extrapolate a single game whooping as your evidence..

I agree with your premise that using one game can be flawed. But I would love to know you defenition of whoopings? Since 1980, X has lost to UD by more than 15 once (90-65 in 2010). Of course that game was at UD because UD hasn't beaten Xavier in Cincinnati since the Carter administration. This game does a great job of proving your point not to rely on one game. X finished 14-2 in conference and made it to the sweet 16. While that game is clearly the case of UD whooping X, I am wondering when the other whoopings you've seen? Was it in the seventies? If so I will concede that UD was better before Bob Staak became Xavier's coach.

[marquette]

We aren't expanding any time soon. 10 is a good number and round robin is a great format. When we do we'll see who has done what. Maybe Northeastern puts together 8 NCAA appearances over the next 10 years, maybe SLU gets a new coach and becomes the new X, maybe UD and Richmond own the A10 over the next 10 years, maybe we decide public schools are ok. Truth is, I have no idea and I'm enjoying the play in a true power conference. It's been a great year so far for the BE. If UD is happy and feels they are in a better spot when expansion happens then so be it. The A10 is a nice conference. We won't expand if there aren't multiple options available. All that said, if the other BE schools all closed up shop at the end of the year and we were forced to join the A10 I would consider that an absolute disaster for our program.

[murphy]

[
Let's come at this from a slightly different direction, without being antagonistic.

As has already been pointed out, there is no way the President of UD would turn down an invitation to join the Big East were one extended, because he is focused on and managing at the institutional level, not just the athletic level. This would be about institutional alignment and brand management for him. He would perform a couple of dog tricks for the BE Presidents assigned to call him with the invitation if it would get them to the phone faster. And yes, this would be a President to President call; the call would not be placed by Val Ackerman.

He would want BE membership for institutional alignment, and he certainly would be jumping for joy over $4+million per year just from a media rights deal and the bona fide national television exposure that comes with it, as well as the opportunity for his program to improve its recruiting, better retain its coaching staff, and achieve better tournament seeding through performance. BTW, the lift that has come for other sports as a result of BE membership has been delightful. And it's all so good that I'll mention the Big East Tournament in MSG as a bona fide advantage lastly.

Now allow me to be very frank with you: I was over the moon when Xavier made the jump from the MCC to the A10. One of our first games back then was against UMASS/Calipari when they were #1 in the nation and we took them to OT in the Cincinnati Gardens. Temple obviously was a part of it. Hell, VA-Tech was a member back in the 90's, etc. I respect what the A10 did for Xavier and what Xavier did for the A10.

All that noted, I can see where it may be hard for you to comprehend the difference in talent that a Big East team accumulates versus what can be done on the recruiting front in the A10. I read UDPRIDE before and after our game with UD in Orlando - I'll visit competitors' boards from time to time to see what they're thinking. As expected, it seemed most of the Flyer faithful found fault in how UD played or with the inexperience of UD's freshmen, etc. They either had no clue or failed to accept the marked difference in talent between Xavier and UD, and the 29-point annihilation proved that out. You see, we played a number of underclassmen in that game, too. Long story short: you may be happy with the team that UD has built, but its built for the A10, not for the Big East.

Frankly, and I truly don't mean to be antagonistic, but you guys operate with a sense of worth that just doesn't reconcile with your standing in college basketball. That really trips you guys up and it gives rise to a number of your fans being considered delusional, and they are delusional. UD doesn't get "plenty of national exposure" from hosting play-in games, as has also already been mentioned. Your media package is a disaster. As a fan of a program that formerly competed in the A10, I know that to be fact and, unlike UD now, at least Xavier had its own media deal with FoxSportsOhio back then.

I don't know what "catering to the whims of Fox" means. UD has no leverage with any of the national media. Otherwise, UD does not have the stature to be a big fan or to not be a big fan of any network, nor is it in any kind of position to react to strings being pulled in any fashion. As far as that goes, neither does any member of the Big East. As an aside, on this matter of perception versus reality, someone on XH recently went onto Pride for some reason and came back to report that a UD fan stated that Archie makes $2.5 million per year - and that apparently was accepted as fact! It's great to have pride in your school and all of that, but having a sense of your real standing will help with your reputation and credibility in the long run - the "you" refers to the general you, not you, specifically.

If you are happy in the A10 by virtue of now having a clearer path to the NCAA Tournament, as a result of the reduced caliber of the A10, that's your right; you're entitled to your preferences. If you believe the current situation is in your best interests, then so be it.

You just need to understand your message about UD being happy in the A10 isn't translating all that well here. UD and other A10 schools are the ones on the outside looking in. Standing outside in the cold and yelling about not wanting in, especially in the face of clear, abundant, and compelling reasons for inclusion, doesn't look all that swift.[/quote]


Again I come in peace - I like XU and the BE, both are interesting to follow ... however
apparently you do not know much about UD. UD is washing in money, yery low admission acceptance rate, huge endowment, they can set their tuition at whatever level and the demand is very high and very successful alums just waiting to fund whatever is needed.
UD does not want to make a deal with the devil (pardon the reference) with FOX Sports and indirectly be linked to FOX news etc. UD wants to chart their own course and
the A10 provides them that vehicle. UD as the largest private university in Ohio established in 1850 and the site of the FIRST FOUR really does not need the BE.
They have a long history of this independent status and do not want to be associated with a network like FOX. No way would they want to be locked into a 10 year deal with a network with a particular political leaning.

Good luck to XU and maybe we will see you again in March

[dakphonics]

I personally love the idea of expansion to 11 schools, starting the conference season a week early, and maintaining the round robin. The problem is a lack of candidates that add to the conferences strength. It should be pretty obvious looking at this through member presidents eyes that they prioritize the following:

1. Basketball Pedigree above Academics
2. No FBS Schools
3. Private University or College
4. Located in an urban market with no overlap
5. Located with scheduling in mind for sponsored sports (In other words, schools must be Central or Eastern Standard Time)

Here are my thoughts on expansion candidates.

DAYTON: I think you run conference rosters outside the P5 and you will find that the only school that actually meets all of the requirements right now is Dayton. Dayton belongs. The only thing that could disqualify them is proximity to Xavier. But they are their own world up there in Dayton. Dayton doesn't disrupt the Cincinnati market. And Xavier fans aren't siphoning off Dayton fans or vice versa. If an invite came with a pair of Golden handcuffs for Archie Miller I'd take them right now quite honestly. (My opinion which isn't much). This is the only option to expand in my eyes. and if not them, then there won't be expansion anytime soon. And I don't think its going to happen for Dayton because I think conference powers would prefer to keep it at 10 and monitor the shifting landscape of conference alignments.

UCONN: would undoubtedly add to the league's depth and prestige. And it would bolster the image of the league also. As a fan its fun to imagine a league with them back in the fold. But it's almost a pipe dream. UCONN's departure was a bad break-up. They weren't a good conference-mate towards the end, and now they are getting alimony from the divorce. It's pretty clear that coming back for now is not an option. As long as their football team is in the FBS they won't be allowed back –even if they park football as an independent. As long as UCONN has hope for, and is packaging itself for sale to the Big12 or ACC they won't be allowed back. And even if the BCS conferences closes the door on UCONN officially, and UCONN drops football to FCS, or goes independent... there is still the matter of UCONN being a public school which changes the business dynamic of the reconstituted Big East.

Every other team I've heard rumblings or suggestions about have too many disqualifying factors. Gonzaga would never work because of the baggage of olympic sports and being 3 time zones away. VCU and Wichita are public. Memphis is public with FBS Football. Temple, Cincy are public with FBS football in a city where a current member resides. St. Joseph's is also. La Salle, St. Bon, Fairfield, Fordham, Duquesne, Richmond, Iona, and Davidson have mostly irrelevant basketball programs. Who else is there? People talk about SLU a lot. St. Louis is traditionally solid academically and is a very large and old Catholic University in a major market with a Medical School, Law School and Engineering School. But their bball program is not doing anything. They fit in every way except basketball. Unfortunately thats kind-of a deal breaker.

[JPSchmack]

You add one role player in Bona who’s OOC scheduling and ability to constantly exceed expectations make them never hurt you. And they’re in an uncontested region that could net you TWO top 50 TV markets in Buffalo and Rochester.

I applaud your support for the Bonnies. I don't think they will ever be added but it's nice to see a passionate fan. I do have a question, does St Bonnies really deliver both Buffalo and Rochester markets. I thought it was was about an hour and a half from Buffalo, even farther from Rochester. With Catholic schools Canisius and Niagara closer to both cities and SUNY Buffalo to compete with it seems odd to believe that St Bonnie can deliver both of these markets.

I honestly don't think it will happen, either. But the only real shot of it happening would be someone in athletics at Marquette, DePaul, Seton Hall, or another Big East school reading this, thinking "Hey! He's totally right" and taking it up the food chain, winning converts along the way. (Mex, if you read this site, go for it). And I'm not really blowing smoke about the reality of the situation because of my loyalties. I came upon my line of thinking by going over all the reasons WHY it'll never happen and plotting out "what we'd have to do" in order for it to be realistic. (To be totally honest, the real smoke that I am blowing is how bad we'd be in the Big East. Exceeding expectations and being way better than everyone thinks is kinda our thing).


But to answer your question, The Buffalo News treats Bonaventure like a home team... the other day, the top story on their college sports page was the Bona women's team, with another Bona men's story and a feature on the Bona men also in their 10 headlines.

There's two reasons for this:
First, Bonaventure is far better at basketball, and has been since Buffalo native Bob Lanier arrived at Bonas in the 60s, than the MAAC and MAC schools.
Second, most the sports media in the region are the products of the journalism school at Bonaventure.

Conference affiliation is a two-way street. Bonaventure will get even more coverage playing the Big East than the Atlantic 10. I mean, compare Villanova vs St. Joe's, Georgetown vs George Washington, Seton Hall vs LaSalle, St. John's vs Fordham, Xavier vs Dayton, Providence vs Rhode Island.

Literally, anytime Bona plays Georgetown or Villanova, there'd be a story in the Rochester paper about how Bona is in the Big East and Syracuse barely plays those schools anymore. And that's really what this about: Bonaventure could be to the new Big East what Syracuse was to the old Big East. Look at where Syracuse was before the original Big East was formed. Bona's resume for Big East inclusion in the 1970s was BETTER than Syracuse's, and Crouthamel "won the rivalry" by keeping Bonaventure out at its formation. Syracuse became a big program because the Big East made the popular among the region of Central/Upstate New York. They're surrounded by the likes of Albany, Siena, Colgate and Binghamton, but SU was big time in the Big East.

That's the revelation I came up with regard to market size. The SIZE of the market doesn't matter as much as the ability to take ownership of it.
Wagner, Drexel, American... they exist in the New York, Philly and DC markets. But they're always going to be third, fourth, fifth fiddle in college basketball. Why wouldn't the same apply to schools surrounded by BCS programs with huge fan bases?

Even if you doubt Bona's ability to bring in many viewers from the 2.6 million people in the 585 and 716 area codes, you have to admit it's far more likely that people THERE watch a Bonaventure Big East conference game on TV because it's better basketball than the Buffalo MAC game, than it is the 2.6 million people in St. Louis watch a SLU Big East game because it's better basketball than Illinois vs the Big Ten, Kansas vs the Big 12 or Missouri vs the SEC.