Commissioner "Val"

[TheHall]

I think Martin and Davis could be good players in the Big East, though I'm not sure they'd be in the top 3-5 freshman when you consider guys like Isaiah Whitehead, Trevon Bluiett, Angel Delgado and Isaac Copeland who are likely going to be instant impact guys while Martin and Davis, with the positions they play probably are going to be getting similar minutes to guys like Paschal Chukwu, Ronnie Harrell and others. This class of Big East freshmen is DEEP. Wideman's a guy who is intriguing. He's definitely got the size to play in this league, but I'll be interested to see what his role is on the team since I don't see him as someone with a great offensive skillset. Is it November yet?

Butler probably has the most underrated group of recruits in all of cbb this year. Wideman is a dancing bear that can do it all, Davis is similar to and might be just as good as Paul White and Copeland. Martin is just as good as anyone on your list above. I watched so much of this guy last year and Ballard played one of the toughest schedules in the county. Martin got over shadowed by Snyder in the early part of the season, but he was the best player (by a little) on that team and by far the leader. Playing time will vary for all the freshman in the BE but if BU wants to continue its success I think they have to let these recruits play, all are transfer candidates if not. Is it November yet???

[BillikensWin]

There's your Butler comparison Redman & your straw man argument too. No one claimed the Zags would come in and dominate, but to make it seem like the Zags couldn't compete in the BE or that they aren't a bigger brand than SLU, VCU, Dayton or any of the other likely candidates is pure hating. Besides the Zags & all those potential candidates have characteristics that will get instantly improved if they join the BE, recruiting being a major one. Just look at the recruits & transfers CU & BU are attracting after 1 year. Now you're telling me that the Zags brand in combination with the BE brand isn't more valuable than Dayton (no offense) or the others.

Btw I'm still waiting for you to show me where I compared Uconn's BE resume to the Zags [/quote]

Completely agree.

I have to wonder why UConn is even in this conversation. How are they relevant? Is someone actually holding out hopes that they'll join the Big East? That's even crazier than hoping for Gonzaga. They just hired the hottest assistant football coach in the country. They didn't do that so they could move their football program to independence or the Sun Belt, either of which would be a disaster for them.

And what's with the cultural similarities or dissimilarities? They're a Jesuit school. I think that gives them a lot in common right off the bat. How are they any different than Creighton culturally? Regardless, this is a basketball conference. They're a basketball school. That's enough to have in common.[/quote]
To be fair I mentioned them & Memphis. But I mentioned them as not realistic options. You already know I get its a pipe dream but until 11 & 12 (13 & 14?) are chosen or until Uconn moves to a real conference I'll keep hope alive. Those two programs aside the Zags are easily the premier realistic "unaffiliated" bball brand out there. And I agree the Zags (along with XU & UNLV back in the day) have been the flag bearer for programs like Creighton, VCU, Wichita St., St. Mary's, Dayton, George Mason, Richmond, Drexel, SLU, etc. Those "mid-majors" that have shown the potential to play with the big boys if they got a shot and the same resources.[/quote]

Mid-major again?

Just kidding...good luck to y'all.

[TheHall]

Mid-major again?

Just kidding...good luck to y'all.

[NJRedman]

First of all, they're not 3000 miles away. They're about 2000 air miles for East Coast schools. 2190 from NYC, closer for everyone else except Providence.

Second, college presidents didn't get where they are because they're good businessmen. They're notoriously conservative in their decision making. The fact that they couldn't see their way to adding Gonzaga the first time around doesn't mean they won't in the future.

Third, 16 bids can't simply be explained by being in a crappy conference. If your theory is correct, you must be able to show me another program in a crappy conference with 16 consecutive bids. Please, be my guest.

Fourth, Gonzaga is simply not an albatross. They have a rabid fan base that sells out every game. That isn't going away overnight even if they have some bad seasons. They're like Providence, or Creighton, or Dayton. They're the "pro" franchise in town. Fans will attend their games in good times and bad. That's good for the conference. Furthermore, they've become a household name, which means that people turn on games that they play in, which helps with TV ratings and is good for marketing the conference.

Fifth, Gonzaga is simply one long road trip a year at most. This is the 21st century with jet planes that travel 500-600 miles per hour. I guarantee you that Gonzaga is a shorter, more comfortable road trip these days than NYC to Buffalo was by bus 50 years ago when that was an 8 hour trip. There were plenty of those kinds of bus trips all over the country in the past. Before the interstate highway system was built, they were a nightmare. And before that, travel was by train which was even longer. Yet teams did it all the time. there is nothing that makes this as burdensome as you make it sound for anyone other than Gonzaga themselves. And they have spoken on the subject. They have no problem with it and would love to join the Big East.

Frankly I can't find one negative about adding them.

Well thats because you aren't living in reality.

Why do you keep bring up these imaginary bus trips to Buffalo 50 years ago? 50 years ago it was harder to get anywhere, WTF does that have to do with anything? We're talking about cross country flights, not traveling within the same state. There are things called "time-zones", and in them it is a different time than all the others. It's a really wonderful thing that is based on the way the earth spins, but thats a different story.

You have no evidence they will show up in bad times, by your own admission they have been awesome for 16 years, so right there you are talking out of your ass. Also, they aren't like Creighton or Dayton, those schools are top ten and top 25 in attendance, the Zags aren't close to that.

Just because no other Mid-Major conference has had a team dominate it, that doesn't mean that the WCC is a tough league or that the Zags are a powerhouse. I can't believe i'm agreeing with Stever but his post is correct about their lack of NCAA success compared to other (some former) Mid-Major schools like Butler, X, WSU or even VCU. I would bet that if you replaced in any team that finished fourth in the nBE any given year with the Zags they would easily win the conference.

I'm sorry to have to explain the obvious to you, but the bus trips to Buffalo are relevant because schools did them. Routinely. Which means that trips to Spokane which take less time are also doable on a college schedule. Yes (sigh) there are time zones. And businessmen who fly all over the country deal with them every week. A trip of that length regardless of the time zones means that you have to leave a day in advance. And you have to have a travel day on the back end as well. That gives you time to adjust to the change in time zones. It's not like we're forging new territory here. In the 21st century, this kind of travel is commonplace.

And the travel is once a year per team. At most. This road trip simply replace the longest one already on your schedule. East Coast teams - even women's teams - are routinely playing games in California and in tournaments in Hawaii and Alaska. But a team can't make one road trip a year to Spokane?

I don't have evidence they'll show up in bad times? And you don't have any evidence they won't. You're the one bringing up the hypothetical "what if". Not me. There's a problem with any school if they go in the toilet. BTW, how's the attendance at St. John's? Not what it used to be, I hear.

Your first instincts are right about agreeing with Steve. The real fact is that Gonzaga has not lacked NCAA tournament success. During their 16 year run, they've been to 5 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8. How many current Big East schools have done that over the past 16 years?

Let me repeat my point about their success again so you can understand it because I never said anything remotely related to your straw man argument that Gonzaga's domination of the WCC shows it to be a tough league. In fact, I agreed with Steve on that point. The point of my comment was Gonzaga's CONSISTENCY. Regardless of how weak the league, no one in the country has had Gonzaga's CONSISTENCY. Regardless of the level of the competition, that says that Gonzaga is a special program. And they haven't gotten to the tournament just on WCC auto ids. They've also gotten their at large, which means that they've been winning games OOC to establish their credentials.

Frankly, the burden is on you to come up with a better candidate for expansion. Who do ya got?

What school was St. John's bussing to in Buffalo? A made up trip isn't based in fact. Also if it's no big deal then why isn't any other major conference rumored to be going coast to coast? Why aren't Pac schools being rumored for B1G expansion? If it's not a big deal why would we be the only ones electing to go that route? The Sun Belt does it but thats purely out of survival. Where are the examples of conferences doing it? Also when did I say I want the conference purely in the northeast? We share the same geographic footprint as the B1G and yes, I think we should keep it that way.

Who do i got? Easy, SLU has a better market, better geographic fit, better cultural fit, has been winning a better league. Dayton, Better attendance, better recent NCAA success (A elite 8 run in the 90's doesn't count, if it did then my johnnies can brag about one), better geographic fit, established rivals, better market.

[billyjack]

Back in December 2012 there was talk of putting together a "national" Big East conference, which i think wouldve had 16 teams. I'm not sure if that idea was scrapped or put on a shelf for the future. The western candidates as a whole just don't have a lot of punch (yet).

I'm pulling this out of my butt, but the national conference would I guess draw from the WCC with Gonzaga and San Francisco (destination city, with new Warriors arena planned for just south of USF campus, plus influential alumni and notable history, plus great recruiting grounds); probably grab a Los Angeles school (LMU), plus still have room for Saint Louis; and maybe any of VCU, BYU, Dayton, and/or an additional SF Bay Area school (St Mary's, Santa Clara), or a longshot with Denver.

The group of 6 to 8 western schools would be kept on our radar for 5+ years until several in addition to Gonzaga really jump out and become obvious additions. Somewhere in a dusty file cabinet there must be some brainstormed configurations of this national set-up. But say 16 teams, the 4 western teams play home-and-home, so 18 games. The rest of us (10 of us, plus Saint Louis and Dayton/VCU) get 3 home and homes with alternating teams in whatever manner we'd like.

Anyway, back to reality and our 10 team set-up which I think is excellent.

P.S. I think the school Bill is talking about in Buffalo that St John's usually plays is Niagara... the Purple Eagles are fellow Vincentians... not sure when the Johnnies last rode a bus out there though...

[Bill Marsh]

Well thats because you aren't living in reality.

Why do you keep bring up these imaginary bus trips to Buffalo 50 years ago? 50 years ago it was harder to get anywhere, WTF does that have to do with anything? We're talking about cross country flights, not traveling within the same state. There are things called "time-zones", and in them it is a different time than all the others. It's a really wonderful thing that is based on the way the earth spins, but thats a different story.

You have no evidence they will show up in bad times, by your own admission they have been awesome for 16 years, so right there you are talking out of your ass. Also, they aren't like Creighton or Dayton, those schools are top ten and top 25 in attendance, the Zags aren't close to that.

Just because no other Mid-Major conference has had a team dominate it, that doesn't mean that the WCC is a tough league or that the Zags are a powerhouse. I can't believe i'm agreeing with Stever but his post is correct about their lack of NCAA success compared to other (some former) Mid-Major schools like Butler, X, WSU or even VCU. I would bet that if you replaced in any team that finished fourth in the nBE any given year with the Zags they would easily win the conference.

I'm sorry to have to explain the obvious to you, but the bus trips to Buffalo are relevant because schools did them. Routinely. Which means that trips to Spokane which take less time are also doable on a college schedule. Yes (sigh) there are time zones. And businessmen who fly all over the country deal with them every week. A trip of that length regardless of the time zones means that you have to leave a day in advance. And you have to have a travel day on the back end as well. That gives you time to adjust to the change in time zones. It's not like we're forging new territory here. In the 21st century, this kind of travel is commonplace.

And the travel is once a year per team. At most. This road trip simply replace the longest one already on your schedule. East Coast teams - even women's teams - are routinely playing games in California and in tournaments in Hawaii and Alaska. But a team can't make one road trip a year to Spokane?

I don't have evidence they'll show up in bad times? And you don't have any evidence they won't. You're the one bringing up the hypothetical "what if". Not me. There's a problem with any school if they go in the toilet. BTW, how's the attendance at St. John's? Not what it used to be, I hear.

Your first instincts are right about agreeing with Steve. The real fact is that Gonzaga has not lacked NCAA tournament success. During their 16 year run, they've been to 5 Sweet 16s and an Elite 8. How many current Big East schools have done that over the past 16 years?

Let me repeat my point about their success again so you can understand it because I never said anything remotely related to your straw man argument that Gonzaga's domination of the WCC shows it to be a tough league. In fact, I agreed with Steve on that point. The point of my comment was Gonzaga's CONSISTENCY. Regardless of how weak the league, no one in the country has had Gonzaga's CONSISTENCY. Regardless of the level of the competition, that says that Gonzaga is a special program. And they haven't gotten to the tournament just on WCC auto ids. They've also gotten their at large, which means that they've been winning games OOC to establish their credentials.

Frankly, the burden is on you to come up with a better candidate for expansion. Who do ya got?

What school was St. John's bussing to in Buffalo? A made up trip isn't based in fact. Also if it's no big deal then why isn't any other major conference rumored to be going coast to coast? Why aren't Pac schools being rumored for B1G expansion? If it's not a big deal why would we be the only ones electing to go that route? The Sun Belt does it but thats purely out of survival. Where are the examples of conferences doing it? Also when did I say I want the conference purely in the northeast? We share the same geographic footprint as the B1G and yes, I think we should keep it that way.

Who do i got? Easy, SLU has a better market, better geographic fit, better cultural fit, has been winning a better league. Dayton, Better attendance, better recent NCAA success (A elite 8 run in the 90's doesn't count, if it did then my johnnies can brag about one), better geographic fit, established rivals, better market.

Frankly I wasn't even thinking of St. John's when I mentioned NY-Buffalo road trips. I know for a fact that way before the MAAC, Manhattan and St. Peter's both had long standing home and home series against Canisius and Niagara. One trip would get them 2 games up there. Same thing when the Buffalo schools came down here in alternate years. But I also know that St. John's has a long history of playing Niagara as well.

Those were just examples of long bus rides that went on all over the country. In the Ivy League, Penn was making an annual trek to Hanover, NH to play Dartmouth. In the Yankee Conference,UConn was busing up to Orono, Maine. Those are just examples in the East. LA schools were busing up to Pullman, Washington and Moscow, Idaho. (U of Idaho was once a member AAWU, forerunner of the now Pac12). Ohio to Iowa, Arizona to Wyoming, Florida to Nashville were all long bus trips back before the interstate highway system and even after.

I agree with you that road trips of this length are a problem, but they're not a problem for the teams that do them once a year. They're a problem for the teams making multiple trips in the same year. West Virginia has already complained about this in the Big XII. In this case, the school making multiple trips is Gonzaga. They say it is not a problem for them. I take them at their word. Their teams are already in planes routinely to go to Southern California and elsewhere in their far flung conference, so I guess they feel that once they're in the air, the extra hour or two, which is all it is, is worth the benefits they would receive.

Footprints are expanding everywhere even if few stretch 2400 miles. The Pacific-12 now stretches east of the Rocky Mountains. The Texas-based Big XII to West Virginia'. The Southeast Conference now includes schools from the old Southwest Conference, the Atlantic Coast has reached into the Ohio Valley and the Great Lakes. The Big Ten now is on the East Coast and the Big east is in Nebraska. Obviously geographically tight-knit conferences are a thing of the past. Jet planes have shrunk distances so what was once inconceivable is now reality.

You ask why anyone else isn't going coast to coast. Well, it's because geographically compact conferences make more sense in many ways IF they can be put together with schools of common interests and similar levels of competition. When the C7 opted to go 90% Catholic and 100% private! they limited the field of candidates. IF they want to be a major player among power basketball conferences, they've limited the field even further. Gonzaga is by far the most successful non-football Catholic basketball program outside the Big East in the past 2 decades. That's why they keep coming up in the discussion. They fit the criteria in every way except geography.

Whatever assets that St Louis and Dayton bring - which are several for each school as you've enumerated - neither has demonstrated the ability to sustain a successful program for a significant length of time. That"s a real problem for a league that aspires to the big time. Once Miller leaves Dayton - as he will - what happens to that recent success? St largeLouis is under the fun right now to show that they can sustain their program in the post-Majerus era.

BTW, St. John's would be bragging about its 1999 Elite 8 if they had continued to be successful just as Duke continues to brag about national championships which we're won more than 20 years ago. When they're part of an ongoing pattern of success, they're still relevant. When the trend has changed directions, then they're ancient history. Ongoing success at Georgetown and Villanova still brings mention of their national championships won in the 1980's because they are the epitome of the ongoing success of great programs. Same for Notre Dame football which hasn't won a title in more than 25 years.

[DudeAnon]

The fact is there are no perfect candidates just like there are no perfect members right now. Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, where is the NCAA tourney success the past decade? Marquette, Butler, where is the Coach? Xavier, Creighton, trending downwards?

So get the best additions possible, but no candidate will be perfect.

[stever20]

The fact is there are no perfect candidates just like there are no perfect members right now. Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, where is the NCAA tourney success the past decade? Marquette, Butler, where is the Coach? Xavier, Creighton, trending downwards?

So get the best additions possible, but no candidate will be perfect.

I don't know that I'd call Xavier trending downwards... Maybe if Mack had left but fact is he didn't.

[paulxu]

Xavier, Creighton, trending downwards?

Damn. Back to the dance last year, probably the best recruiting class we've ever had (in the top 25)...I thought we were headed in the right direction. Oh well.

[hoyahooligan]

The fact is there are no perfect candidates just like there are no perfect members right now. Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, where is the NCAA tourney success the past decade? Marquette, Butler, where is the Coach? Xavier, Creighton, trending downwards?

So get the best additions possible, but no candidate will be perfect.

? Georgetown and Nova have both been to the final 4 in the last decade. Nova has an elite 8 and 2 sweet 16s in addition. Georgetown has an additional sweet 16.

Xavier is definitely not trending downwards.

I'd say most of the members are trending up. Only teams that appear to be trending down looking at from 2 years ago to now would be Creighton and Marquette.