OT: Confederate Flag, and Kudos to Frank The Tank...

[billyjack]

This is a college basketball site primarily, and we've done a great job in our 3 years here to keep it non-political and respectful.

However, I've got to comment on the Confederate flag controversy. In my opinion, it should be removed certainly from public places and should be considered an embarrassment and be shunned. We have friends, neighbors, students at our schools, and a quarter of our fellow Americans who find the flag extremely offensive, and the rest of us Americans should I think feel the same way. Just basic common decency and respect should, I think, lead you to the conclusion that the flag should be taken down.

Anyway, on that other board (college football based), there has been an ongoing discussion regarding the flag controversy.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-740893-page-15.html

So, anyway, I want to give a shout out of thanks to DePaul (and U of Illinois) fan Frank The Tank for stepping into the mire over there, trying to talk rationally and patiently to a group of Southern heritage fans. At this point, the anti-flag people have stopped contributing to the discussion, probably out of complete disgust or depression. Just want to tip my hat to Frank, who is a great contributor to this site and possibly the most patient guy in America.

snippet from Frank:

"This isn't about the merits or justification of the Civil War and those that fought in it, which is what so many Confederate flag supporters try to turn this argument into.

What the flag may or may not have meant in 1861 is irrelevant today. It is NOW a symbol of racism. That might have been the fault of hate groups using it as opposed to true Southern pride individuals, but the fact remains that is how it is looked at NOW. To say that it isn't an extremely offensive symbol to a very large percentage of Americans is tone deaf to say the least. We can debate forever about the "true" meaning of the Confederate flag, but it is seen as racist by a very significant number of people. Period. If that's the case, then the state is making a bad decision to tacitly support it by having it flown on its capitol grounds.

Does the state have the right to fly the flag as a matter of free speech? Sure. However, that also means that the entire rest of the country can exercise its own free speech by openly pointing out how backwards and disgusting it is. No one has to tolerate others' intolerance."

another snippet from Frank:

"Look - I get it. People don't want to believe that the symbol that they love (or believe is steeped in tradition or represents something completely different) is perceived to be bigoted or racist. That was exactly how I felt about Chief Illiniwek for a long time - I made arguments similar to what I'm hearing from defenders about the Confederate flag, such as "The Chief is respectful", "It's different than the Redskins or other Native American mascots that are truly racist", "It's tradition", and, of course, the classic defense of "People that aren't from here don't understand and outsiders can't tell us what to do!"

However, I eventually evolved to understand that whatever I believed Chief Illiniwek meant to me was completely irrelevant. I had no authority to state whether the Chief was offensive or not because, as a half-Polish/half-Chinese person, I had absolutely no skin in the game. It was easy to pass something off as the Chief being a target of the PC police because it wasn't making a statement on my heritage or racial background.

The turning point was when I watched a Chief performance next to a Native American and, for the first time after having cheered for the Chief dozens of times before, I felt embarrassed. And if I felt embarrassed watching the Chief with a Native American, how on Earth could I defend it as not, at the very least, being offensive at some level (if not outright racist)?

Apply the same test to yourself. If you invited an African-American person to your house, would you seriously display the Confederate flag there? Would you honestly not feel a tinge of embarrassment/remorse/etc.? What if you were walking down the street with an African-American and saw a Confederate flag? How would you feel? Is it honestly just a neutral symbol to you in that moment? Can you sincerely not separate how it is now perceived as a symbol regarding race from its original historical intent?

If you wouldn't display the Confederate flag to an African-American person in your own house, then the state capitol, which is supposed to be the "house" for all people of that state, shouldn't be displaying it, either. This isn't a case of the PC police run amok - this is simply common decency in the home of a state government that is supposed to be welcoming to all of its citizens. People are confusing whether the state *can* fly the flag (as the state *can* do anything) with whether it *should* as a matter of human decency (as opposed to focusing on defiance toward outsiders, which is a commonly awful justification for bad behavior throughout history)."

Anyway, eventually this thread can be moved to the off-topic board. I thought it was an interesting discussion.

[Hoopfan]

Now just have to wait for dukes of hazard to be taken off tv and civil war reenactment so to be cancelled

[DudeAnon]

I'd like to think that common sense is the real law of the land. But I am proven wrong time and time again.

[DudeAnon]

Now just have to wait for dukes of hazard to be taken off tv and civil war reenactment so to be cancelled

[MUPanther]

People die in a church, so let's fix it by taking down a flag.

[DudeAnon]

People die in a church, so let's fix it by taking down a flag.

[Hoopfan]

I'm not from the south so i have no connection to the flag. I just think people are going overboard with this. Here he is burning a flag, stomping on a flag, and spitting on it. Dude was F'd up in the head and its as bad, if not worse in most peoples minds, than idiots in ferguson and Baltimore. This allowed people to make a political push for something they disagreed with.

[ChestRockwell85]

Listen, I am a Northern Yankee, grew up in New York, went to school in Connecticut for a year and after that spent 4 years at Villanova in Philadelphia, after that, it's been New York again ever since. I had relatives fresh off the boat from Ireland who fought for the Fighting 69th of New York in The Civil War as well. Until recently where I have had relatives move to places like Georgia, South Carolina and Texas, I have no real ties to the South.

With that being said I am also a student of history and realize that less than 6% of Confederate soldiers owned slaves and the Confederate flag that we have all grown accustomed to is actually the Confederate Battle flag, not the actual flag of The Confederacy. The majority of them, despite what people will say today, really were just fighting because they wanted to be left alone, and felt that the US Government at the time was getting too involved with their way of life, which unfortunately did include slavery regardless of the fact that so few did actually own slaves.

Although descendants of Confederate soldiers should have the right to honor their ancestors, the fact of the matter is regardless of the fact so few were actually slave owners, they were fighting to preserve slavery. That simple fact alone kills most arguments. Also, that flag also represents secession, and the attempted breakup of the country that these people now live in. If you are a proud American, like I know many Southerners to be, why continue to fly something that represents an attempt to destroy YOUR own country? You might as well be flying a British flag to commemorate the War of 1812, it LITERALLY is the same idea.

To conclude, you lost the F'ing War, you lost the right to fly that flag, you are an AMERICAN. It is a slap in the face to African-Americans regardless of whether or not your ancestors were slave owners, and it is a constant reminder of the biggest mistake of our founding fathers, to let slavery go on for almost another 100 years after we supposedly became "free." Like the Nazis did with the swastika, too many hate groups have used the Confederate Battle flag to represent racism and have pretty much tarnished it regardless of what it is meant to represent.

Take it down. End of story. Only time you should be seeing it is in Museums and Civil War reenactments.

[XtoDC]

I agree with most of the Yanks on here and I always use the exact same argument as Frank the Tank, which I think is the most logical. How would you feel about showing off your (insert controversial item/word here) to a person of (insert potentially offended group here). This test would probably be all we need if people were actually honest about things as well as open minded to change.

In summary though, I think we should all keep this in mind:

[micgoG'town]

I lived on the NC-Virginia border for 19 years, living in Maryland otherwise. There is racism everywhere, but there is a night and day difference. The further South the more ingrained and accepted it is. I'm a 47 year old white male by the way. It's rare to see a US flag and a Confederate flag in the same yard. Most Confederate flag supporters are Southerners first and Americans a distant second if at all.