Will UNC get the death penalty?

[Bill Marsh]

No . . . but they should.

Now that I've got your attention, let me refer you to an article in CBS Sports online, "UNC's Unprecedented Academic Fraud Case Will test NCAA".

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -test-ncaa

"I can assure you the depth and breadth and sheer numbers of affected athletes is in fact the largest and the most egregious case of academic fraud filed by far in NCAA history," said (Drake Group President David) Gurney, who has been an athletic department compliance director and run academic support programs for athletes." Gurney and 2 colleagues researched every NCAA academic fraud case since the D-I infractions committee began in 1953.

"A school with an aggravating Level I violation could face:

1. a 2 to 4 year postseason ban;
2. fines that reach up to 5 percent of the total budget for the penalized sport(s);
3. scholarship reductions between 25 and 50 percent for the involved sport;
4. a show-cause order of 5 to 10 years for an individual involved in the case;
5. a head coach suspended for up to a full season."

What North Carolina has going for it is that it was exceptionally aggressive in investigating this case. they didn't let it drop when they could have. This is no Penn state situation with Sandusky. However, they have 2 things to fear:

1. This case is so large and extensive over so many years (18) that it can't be ignored;
2. In recent months, the NCAA has said it wants to enforce violations that most seriously threaten the college model, including academic fraud;
3. The NCAA has the opportunity to take a strong stand here without threatening one of their golden football programs but still make a big splash against a high profile school

I think that Carolina is screwed. It won't be as bad as it could be, but it will be bad. This combined with the retirement with in the next few years of Coach K opens up opportunities for ACC newcomers - especially Louisville and Syracuse - except that they too are facing imminent retirements of coaching legends within the next 5 years. Maybe the ACC will be brought down a peg and it will open opportunities for all of us.

Before I get too giddy, I have to remind myself that Kentucky faced a similar situation 25 years ago and came back stronger than ever. But North Carolina is not Kentucky. North Carolina has a Public Ivy reputation to preserve and despite this situation it does have some ethics. Kentucky has no shame.

[billyjack]

No . . . but they should.

Now that I've got your attention, let me refer you to an article in CBS Sports online, "UNC's Unprecedented Academic Fraud Case Will test NCAA".

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -test-ncaa

"I can assure you the depth and breadth and sheer numbers of affected athletes is in fact the largest and the most egregious case of academic fraud filed by far in NCAA history," said (Drake Group President David) Gurney, who has been an athletic department compliance director and run academic support programs for athletes." Gurney and 2 colleagues researched every NCAA academic fraud case since the D-I infractions committee began in 1953.

"A school with an aggravating Level I violation could face:

1. a 2 to 4 year postseason ban;
2. fines that reach up to 5 percent of the total budget for the penalized sport(s);
3. scholarship reductions between 25 and 50 percent for the involved sport;
4. a show-cause order of 5 to 10 years for an individual involved in the case;
5. a head coach suspended for up to a full season."

What North Carolina has going for it is that it was exceptionally aggressive in investigating this case. they didn't let it drop when they could have. This is no Penn state situation with Sandusky. However, they have 2 things to fear:

1. This case is so large and extensive over so many years (18) that it can't be ignored;
2. In recent months, the NCAA has said it wants to enforce violations that most seriously threaten the college model, including academic fraud;
3. The NCAA has the opportunity to take a strong stand here without threatening one of their golden football programs but still make a big splash against a high profile school

I think that Carolina is screwed. It won't be as bad as it could be, but it will be bad. This combined with the retirement with in the next few years of Coach K opens up opportunities for ACC newcomers - especially Louisville and Syracuse - except that they too are facing imminent retirements of coaching legends within the next 5 years. Maybe the ACC will be brought down a peg and it will open opportunities for all of us.

Before I get too giddy, I have to remind myself that Kentucky faced a similar situation 25 years ago and came back stronger than ever. But North Carolina is not Kentucky. North Carolina has a Public Ivy reputation to preserve and despite this situation it does have some ethics. Kentucky has no shame.

Good summary and important topic Bill.

I have an unhealthy dislike of the ACC as a conference. I think I've had this problem for at least 30 years. Though occasionally but rarely I do like individual players or coaches (liked Valvano and Gary Williams). Also, my wife is a Georgia Tech alum, so I'm cool with them.

Anyway, my wish (unlikely) would be for UNC to have their 3 championships vacated and their banners taken down from this era (Final Fours and all vacated too). Vacating regular season wins like was done to Penn State would be nice, but a bonus. Other death penalty items on top of that would be gravy really too, and longterm UNC would recover from them... but the banners would be lost forever.

In reality, I think they'll get a slap on the wrist, though the story seems to have gotten traction. Any non-blueblood school would be completely destroyed and discredited, but UNC will be protected.

[mpwalsh8]

No . . . but they should.

What North Carolina has going for it is that it was exceptionally aggressive in investigating this case. they didn't let it drop when they could have. This is no Penn state situation with Sandusky. However, they have 2 things to fear:

1. This case is so large and extensive over so many years (18) that it can't be ignored;
2. In recent months, the NCAA has said it wants to enforce violations that most seriously threaten the college model, including academic fraud;
3. The NCAA has the opportunity to take a strong stand here without threatening one of their golden football programs but still make a big splash against a high profile school

Stating UNC was aggressive in investigating this case is a stretch. Pretty much the opposite in my opinion. I live just outside of Raleigh and this mess has been brewing for years. Several "internal" investigations have taken place largely because the amount of evidence has forced UNC's hand to do something. Dan Kane, a reporter from the News and Observer, has continued to dig into this story much to UNC's chagrin.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/25/ ... .html?rh=1

Unfortunately the N&O doesn't make it easy to search or link to all of Dan Kane's articles or I would provide a link. If you want some entertaining reading, and it would probably take a month or more to read it all, visit PackPride.com and peruse one of the many threads on the troubles at UNC. There is certainly no love lost between NC State and UNC so you have to read PackPride with a grain of salt but there is no doubt that there is a lot of sketchy stuff that has taken place over at UNC.

I don't see how UNC will skate on this but from some rumblings (rumors) it appears they are willing to sacrifice the football team to remove scrutiny from Men's and Women's basketball and Women's soccer in particular - all sports they won NCAA championships in during the time in question.

The real head scratcher for me is Women's Soccer as UNC literally has the pick of the best female soccer players in the country. There is no reason why they would have to accept any player who has questionable academics. It is pretty common knowledge, at least from my experience with my daughter and the other players and parents from her soccer team, strong academics are expected and college coaches do not waste their time on players with questionable academics. They don't have to. There are plenty of very good players with strong academics that they simply don't take the chance with academic question marks.

My wife got her MBA from UNC and I can vouch for the fact that none of her courses were "no-show" or "paper" classes. She worked her ass off for 25 months straight.

We'll see where this ends up but it certainly doesn't look good for UNC right now.

[Bill Marsh]

No . . . but they should.

What North Carolina has going for it is that it was exceptionally aggressive in investigating this case. they didn't let it drop when they could have. This is no Penn state situation with Sandusky. However, they have 2 things to fear:

1. This case is so large and extensive over so many years (18) that it can't be ignored;
2. In recent months, the NCAA has said it wants to enforce violations that most seriously threaten the college model, including academic fraud;
3. The NCAA has the opportunity to take a strong stand here without threatening one of their golden football programs but still make a big splash against a high profile school

Stating UNC was aggressive in investigating this case is a stretch. Pretty much the opposite in my opinion. I live just outside of Raleigh and this mess has been brewing for years. Several "internal" investigations have taken place largely because the amount of evidence has forced UNC's hand to do something. Dan Kane, a reporter from the News and Observer, has continued to dig into this story much to UNC's chagrin.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/25/ ... .html?rh=1

Unfortunately the N&O doesn't make it easy to search or link to all of Dan Kane's articles or I would provide a link. If you want some entertaining reading, and it would probably take a month or more to read it all, visit PackPride.com and peruse one of the many threads on the troubles at UNC. There is certainly no love lost between NC State and UNC so you have to read PackPride with a grain of salt but there is no doubt that there is a lot of sketchy stuff that has taken place over at UNC.

I don't see how UNC will skate on this but from some rumblings (rumors) it appears they are willing to sacrifice the football team to remove scrutiny from Men's and Women's basketball and Women's soccer in particular - all sports they won NCAA championships in during the time in question.

The real head scratcher for me is Women's Soccer as UNC literally has the pick of the best female soccer players in the country. There is no reason why they would have to accept any player who has questionable academics. It is pretty common knowledge, at least from my experience with my daughter and the other players and parents from her soccer team, strong academics are expected and college coaches do not waste their time on players with questionable academics. They don't have to. There are plenty of very good players with strong academics that they simply don't take the chance with academic question marks.

My wife got her MBA from UNC and I can vouch for the fact that none of her courses were "no-show" or "paper" classes. She worked her ass off for 25 months straight.

We'll see where this ends up but it certainly doesn't look good for UNC right now.

Thanks for the Tobacco Road perspective.

Hard to understand how such an elite academic institution as this could allow this kind of thing to go on. The defense of the Athletic Dept is that this fraudulent program wasn't of our making. It existed in its own right on the academic side. sure, we took advantage of it, but more than half the students in those classes were non-athletes.

They've got a point. Again, for an institution that is known as some place special, some place that is not the standard state university academic factory that so many state schools are, it is just hard to understand how they could allow this to happen on the academic side. Frankly, even before athletic sanctions, the president should go and they can follow up from there.

[Noonzy]

I have no sympathy for either UNC or 'Cuse or Fla St. Both UNC and "Cuse have to be hit really hard. This is the second time since Jimmy B has been there. They got probabation once so now they only get another probation? UNC has been doing this crap for 18 years, but now they are reacting so they should be cut some slack? UConn took a big hit for their APR issue only to have the rules to be changed. The NCAA has to send a strong message to all other schools-keep your programs clean or face the severe penalties.

[mpwalsh8]

They've got a point. Again, for an institution that is known as some place special, some place that is not the standard state university academic factory that so many state schools are, it is just hard to understand how they could allow this to happen on the academic side. Frankly, even before athletic sanctions, the president should go and they can follow up from there.

Here is another conundrum. UNC is notoriously difficult to get accepted at. I know, or my kids know, lots of kids who have stellar grades and numerous extra curricular activities who have applied and were not accepted. If you are accepted now, do you go?

My wife and I had this very discussion the other night as it might affect our family fairly soon. If I were choosing between UVA and UNC, two excellent public schools, I would choose UVA without hesitation right now. But if I were a resident of North Carolina, which I am, and choosing between UNC and another UNC system school, I would still choose UNC. What UNC has done is a mess no doubt and quite possibly criminal. It reflects poorly on the school as a whole the reputation of all who have gone there for the past 20 years. However, if choosing a college for an education, which should be the primary reason, I believe that 98% of what UNC offers was, and still is, excellent and for North Carolina residents, a fantastic value if you're lucky enough to gain acceptance.

It will be interesting to see how all of this mess affects their admission figures.

I suspect when this is all done, UNC will lose one or both basketball championships from 2005 and 2009 along with scholarship penalties across all sports. There is simply too much for them to walk away with "time already served" as they would like to do. I am definitely looking forward to the UNC-NC State game at NCSU this year. That game is always fun, this year it should be particularly so.

[stever20]

I doubt they get the death penalty. Probably not even the Penn St penalty(which would cripple a basketball program even more than it has Penn St)..

Speaking of Penn St- saw today that right now they're playing with something like 44 scholarship players. That's 19 less than FCS allows.

[robinreed]

Will UNC get the death penalty?

God I hope so.

[gosports1]

Someone needs to be punished, UNC-Wilmington or Asheville probably will but certainlly not Chapel Hill.

[mpwalsh8]

The Pack Pride board cracks me up. There is some funny stuff on VUHoops, particularly in the Bench Warmers 4.6 forum but Pack Pride's obsession / hatred for all things UNC is in overdrive these past few days with the UNC scandal. Check out the UNC Photoshop thread for some pretty funny stuff, particularly later in the thread. When I was at Villanova we despised Georgetown but our level of hatred was rank amateur compared to NC State's hatred of UNC. Some of these people must do nothing else but hate UNC. All day long.